I wasn’t too surprised when religious beliefs and dogma started entering the blog posts and comments on the Patch. As my mother taught me, never discuss religion or politics in polite company.
However, the Patch is anything but polite company. Bitter political battles have been going on for better than a year now and no one should expect to see it soon subside. Invariably whenever political arguments are flying, there will always be those who will call on religion as a source of authority and/or correctness of position and action. The question is first; whether religion has a rightful place in political discussions, and second; if it is rightfully present, then what role is religion to play?
I don’t think I would get too many arguments concerning the role that religion has played in human strife and warfare, especially in European history. From the earliest European settlers in North America, not only were they seeking economic opportunity, but, also religious opportunity.
Of all the social institutions; the institute of religion represents the living archive of beliefs, cultural norms, morals, values, proscribed behavior and myths. For those who advocate religious orientation, personal religious beliefs provide a framework for perceptual being or how we interact with the outer reality of the world. The real role of religion in society is to provide continuity between succeeding generations; and, is just as important as our genetic heritage. Religion also plays a critical role in resisting uncontrolled change and fundamentally is a “conservative force” regulating the process of change. Given that religion’s function is to regulate change, when does the institution, itself, become dysfunctional?
In a heterogeneous society that has a number of cultural and religious traditions, the dominance of any one religious belief system is the antecedent for conflict. The founders of this nation wisely prohibited the government from establishing a state religion. Their vision of American Society was one that was primarily secular in nature, derived from the Age of Enlightenment.
However, since all the early founders were familiar with and preferred Protestantism or at least deism, it would only follow that most American Values reflected the values of European Protestantism. The nation’s economy flourished under Protestantism and sovereign individualism propelled the nation into a full continental enterprise. There was a “fly in the ointment” preventing a national religion, the Constitution. The US Constitution is a covenant between those being governed and those governing. It is a social contract in the truest sense to protect the least of us from the majority. A clear religious majority would necessarily create a form of democratic theocracy.
Injecting religion into politics is a call to create a theocracy, either in actuality or implied. About 40 years ago, religion, although always present in our society, began to inject itself into politics dividing the conservative political movement into social conservatives and fiscal conservatives. Under the Reagan years the two movements found a commonality and now, for the most part, support the other. There is a clear and present danger in this and it represents a call for theocracy.
In my six plus decades I have seen religious beliefs used to justify every type human behavior and activity. We all have seen the disaster rendered by the religious fundamentalists that brought down the “Twin Towers”. Religious motivated politics makes it almost impossible to govern and to move forward through the process of compromise as outlined in our form of democracy. Religion is clearly dysfunctional when it artificially limits the rights of others in favor of those who hold a particular religious belief and are unable to compromise those beliefs without defying religious tenets.
In my view, the proper place for religion is outside the political arena. I don’t wish anyone to legislate their religious beliefs onto me nor do I wish to legislate my belief on others. Politics is best accomplished with people of ethical principles and the house of worship stays in its proper place.
CowDung
11:07 am on Wednesday, February 8, 2012
I'm guessing that you didn't buy one of the 'Gore-Liebermann 2000' yarmulkes...
Lyle Ruble
11:13 am on Wednesday, February 8, 2012
@CowDung...Absolutely not. Liebermann has shown his true colors and turned out to be a hawk.
Bob McBride
11:15 am on Wednesday, February 8, 2012
I thought you were kidding....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x4767964
Lyle, perhaps you should have, though. They seem to have appreciated in value.
CowDung
11:19 am on Wednesday, February 8, 2012
There was actually a better one on their campaign website at the time. It had Gore-Lieberman written in Hebrew. I almost bought one at the time...
Steve
4:14 pm on Wednesday, February 8, 2012
Obama is my Jebus
Dave Kube
7:45 am on Thursday, February 9, 2012
I always find it interesting that whenever i read an article about religion and politics the only information ever posted is the negative comments regarding war and opportunism with a total disregard for the incrementalism that has eroded any core "moral" values to a "just do whatever you want" mentality. Alot of political veiws are based on the "right and wrong" of the individual. I find it amazing that the most educated individuals can find it so hard to grasp that religion is not the answer, but truth is out there to be found. I didn't say personal conviction, i said truth. Such as "you shouldn't kill other people" or "you shouldn't molest children" or "you shouldn't rape women". Where did those "rules" come from? So then, if you form a "truth" from let's just say those three rules, and someone else doesn't, does that make these thing o.k. to do just on the premise of disagreement? Should we throw the speed limits away just because I don't like them, who does that police officer think he is for governing my need to want to do 100mph in a posted 25mph speed zone. you can't have it both ways. You can't throw your fist in the air and yell "no rules!" but then scream at the t.v. "how can the judge let that child molestor or rapist off when the evidence clearly shows that...!!!!" Who instituted the "idea" of regulating the human spirit and propensity to disregard the "law" set in place. You can't say government because that "idea" didn't always exist throughout history.
Dave Kube
8:04 am on Thursday, February 9, 2012
Those of us that have educated ourselve to think beyond the "idea" that the "end result of our thinking justifies the means of how culture should be living" which only leads to cataclysmic circular reasoning, understand that whenever people are involved in any form organized entity that there is going to be misunderstanding, misinterpretation and/or corruption. Just because a "governing entity" misuses a set of rules does not make truth any less valid, nor does it mean that everyone involved in the said organization necessarily agrees with the "leaderships decisions. So to make that idea completely inclusive is the same as bigotry in it's finest. Those "christians" are all alike! Are we really? What you believe to be right depends soley on what it is you want to protect the most and that will always drive any personal opinion in voting, identifying, perceiving, etc. in a certain way when it comes to politics. The two cannot be disconnected. But what makes it worse is when you combine emotion with veiw point. They are very closely related but not totally interconnected.
Dave Kube
8:04 am on Thursday, February 9, 2012
Those driven by emotion usually, i didn't say always, become offended quickly, respond harshly and begin name calling/belittling before reason can take hold. My father used to tell me, "that when emotions run high, common sense runs low". I agree with that because i've witnessed the failure of reason through emotion in my own life. And it is because of politics that many lack reason. Politics is not the answer that leads one to truth (or whatever u call it) either. Politics can be just as much of a "religion" that can be misused as well.
Lyle Ruble
8:56 am on Thursday, February 9, 2012
@Dave Kube...Good comments my friend. Religion as a social institution is critical in a well functioning society. As a species, our chief survival strategy is social organization and social adaptation. The "truths" that you speak of are not necessarily religious imperatives, but survival imperatives that religion has sanctified and added to framework of social organization. Whether one is a religionist or a secularist, adopting a position of "anything goes" is, admittedly, a ticket to disaster. However, when the social order is overly controlled and not allowing for social adaptation, it too leads to disaster. From a purely secular standpoint, politics becomes the meeting place where permanency and adaptation are played out. The political interaction becomes critical to adapting while maintaining a stable society where the majority will survive and benefit. Political expediency without moral and ethical constraints quickly becomes a tytanny.
Dave Kube
9:30 am on Thursday, February 9, 2012
Thanks Lyle...Sanctification is a process of identifying what is wrong and making necessary changes to adapt to a standard of "right". Not my "right", but the right that you may deem important to you (you, as in global sense not literal). There are two ways two interpret your survival statement. One is to ask the questions, where did those "instincts" come from, where did they get their beginnings and how did they become associated/linked to religion? The other is to take your statement literally and leave it as such, which is fine. The definition of social adaptation is a relative meaing that takes me back to the incrementalism that potentially leads to "the anything goes" mentality. So how do you govern that? Who deems what's right for everyone in that sense? I know in my own self there is a human dark potential with the propensity to disregard others feelings and be totally non caring of anyone or anything. So what governs my insatiable desire to fulfill my wanton lusts of every kind? Is it my choice of "religion"? is it my political "affiliation"? Or do I just hold other's feelings and rights as greater than my own? Where does that ability to chose come from? My father also told me that "freedom" isn't just having the ability to do whatever you want, but having that ability and make a choice to not do certain things.
Dave Kube
9:31 am on Thursday, February 9, 2012
On the extreme other side of the coin, it is not the place of politics or culture for that matter to try to dictate/govern any set of belief systems, with the exception of extremism, which is usually begun through inability to separate emotion from perception and a feeling of superiority over another person/belief/religion/etc...
Dave Kube
9:49 am on Thursday, February 9, 2012
Let's look at the crusades for example since you brought up warring over "religious" beliefs...Has anyone ever looked past the actual history of that warring as ask themselves, "I wonder if either 'side' ever stopped to ask what their God thinks about warring to gain power or authority over another..." or was the power, position and control to be gained over another "people of faith" the means to the end? Who do we blame then? Men? or "God"?...
Lyle Ruble
10:49 am on Thursday, February 9, 2012
@Dave Kube… You present excellent questions and observations. About six years ago I began research on a book I am writing that addresses the question that Thomas Hobbes first proposed in the 17th century; “why is there order?” My approach to answering the question is, by necessity, a look for secular explanations and arguments. One of the conclusions that I have come to is that it is in our survival self-interest to socially cooperate. As a social species that cannot survive without the support of the collective group, we have evolved the genetic propensity to cooperate. In addition to our social/biological nature, we are also cognitive entities, capable of reasoning and understanding causality and problem solving. This is the nature component to the question. Those who do not cooperate are either forced out of the group or not allowed to pass on their genetic material. Over the course of two hundred millennia that our species has existed, we as a species have continuously weeded out, through the process of natural selection, undesirable members until we have evolved into modern humans capable of socialization. The nurture portion is the act of socialization that teaches the individual to live within the collective community. Critical to the survival of the collective community is the rules of social interaction and relationships. (continued)
Lyle Ruble
10:51 am on Thursday, February 9, 2012
@Dave Kube...(continued) These rules are represented by the cultural beliefs, morals, ethics, norms, folkways, etc. As our physical environment has changed and forced adaptation, we as a species have slowly adapted the “rules” to assure collective survival.
My perspective on the Christian Crusades is that they were a manmade invention to reinforce the power of the Medieval Roman Catholic Church. Prior to the Crusades, Western Europe was in the midst of bloody wars between war lords seeking power and control by the vacuum created with the collapse of the Roman Empire. This had been going on for the whole of the “Dark Ages”. As certain kings began to consolidate wealth and power, they began to challenge the Church. Pope Urban the II received a call for help from the Byzantine Orthodox Church who were attempting to stem the tide of the Islamic Turks. Western Christianity was also attempting to hold against the Islamic Moors on the Iberian Peninsula. In one delft move, Urban called for the Crusade to create an external enemy which would focus the warring Europeans from killing each other and killing the Islamists. He also offered absolution for those that participated. Although it solved the problem of the time, it would eventually lead to the six hundred year decline of the Roman Church’s power.
Dave Kube
11:38 am on Thursday, February 9, 2012
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend"...hmmmm...interesting points Lyle. The problem with history is the perception of the person witing said history. Some things can be proven absolute through science, archeology, etc. but then there are those pesky details that always leave room for personal interpretation. There in lies the issues of moral interpretation. For instance, in my opinion, the beginning of the downfall of the Roman Catholic Church began when Alexander the Great combined the government with religion and made it "cool" (to use common vernacular) to be a "christian" at the time after endless years of church prosecution. Others may disagree, and that is perfectly fine with me. I love a good theological/governmental discussion. As far as the evolution of natural selection versus the idea of creation, there is evidence to support both sides of the provebial equation, but both require a certain amount of faith in something because in true science, in order to prove either one, one of the rules is that it must have the ability to be duplicated. If you cannot do that with any experiments then it is theory and no theory needs or should be taught as fact. I don't know anyone that was present at either one, do you? Therefor, a certain amount of faith in "something" is required in either case, so lets discuss/teach what we do know as scientific fact instead. That is just my opinion. (continued)
Lyle Ruble
3:20 pm on Monday, February 13, 2012
@David Kube...Did you Constantine the Great when you stated Alexander the Great? Alexander lived a little over 300 years before the birth of Man from Nazareth.
Dave Kube
7:12 am on Wednesday, February 15, 2012
@ Lyle...Sorry for the delayed reponse, I don't always have time to hang out with my computer and keep a watchful eye on whom responded. However, You are correct sir, I mistyped the wrong era of leadership. Alexander defeated the Persian empire well before Constantine combined the church with the government in the 4th century...Sorry about the confusion, my bad...
Dave Kube
7:15 am on Wednesday, February 15, 2012
@ Lyle...are you on Facebook as well?...If you are, send me a friend request if you get some time. My user name and profile pic are the same as on here...
David Tatarowicz
11:45 am on Thursday, February 9, 2012
The Bottom Line is that People are afraid of the unknown and all religions portend to give them knowledge of what will happen when they die. After fulfilling that basic need of the human psyche, religion(s) become a matter of turf, control and domination --- much like any other institution or group, from the street gangs to the various governments.
It is interesting to see how the Republican primary candidates are so immersed in religion and (supposedly) espousing their beliefs to win over voters.
It is also interesting that they are all nominally Christians ....... from various Christian affiliations that purportedly all believe in the same Christian basics, but cannot come to terms of agreement on just what those are.
I also find it of interest that though this club does not include Jews or Muslims, they all (with the exception I believe of Ron Paul) seem to convey that they support Jews but not Muslims. I found it particularly outrageous that Gingrich said the first thing he would do as president is to move the US Embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem!!! WOW -- not very subtle code for screw the Muslims, but Jews are ok.--- at least ok in Israel, not particularly as a presidential candidate in the Republican Party.
In an unscientific assessment of my own past heritage, I believe that I have ancestors of Islam, Judaism and Christianity - in a world wide conflagration of the religions of Abraham I guess I would have to kill myself !!
Dave Kube
12:08 pm on Thursday, February 9, 2012
@ David T...Being afraid of the unknown is what drives people to find hope. Where and how they find hope is a personal choice based on perception through life experience. I respect your opinion completely, but to put a perceived negative spin on republicans being christian is extremely short sighted. I no many republicans that are non-christian but hold the same relative moral veiw that align with christianity. Republican does not necessarily mean Christian just like Liberal does not necessarily equal Atheist. America has aligned itself with Isreal for many years because of the basic moral values that we inherantly adhere to and standardize our root beliefs from. Our affiliation with Isreal does not oppress any belief system here in America nor does it dictate to you what to believe in. So just because someone in "authority" says something you disagree with does not make all "repubican christians" guilty by association. Do you gravitate toward a certain political party? why? Should I criticize you for your belief affiliation? Or should I just let you be an individual who has the ability to choose for yourself and not stand in judgement over said choice? (continued)
Dave Kube
12:14 pm on Thursday, February 9, 2012
@ David T...Do you agree with what happened on September 11, 2001? In your opinion, what should we have done? (I am asking with all sincerety, i'm not being sarcastic by any means). Should we say it's o.k. because the individuals that carried out the plans for that day believe in what they did to be right so we should allow that behavior...or?...We all have ancestors from the Eastern Nations but that geneology does not necessarily make you whom you are today, as an adult, you choose how you want to act, react, eat, speak, etc. even though biology does play a factore in body type, skin color, build, etc...I am proud of my Heritage, but I am not shortsighted enough to think that my hertitage is better, greater, higher, etc. than anyone elses. I can't change my past geneology, but I can change what I, as an individual, do. And I choose to let everyone be whom they are, but I will protect my family and not lay down for anyone whom will attempt to infiltrate it with judgement and potential harm. Or should I?...hmmmm...
Lyle Ruble
12:50 pm on Thursday, February 9, 2012
@David Tatarowicz...Hello my friend. Much of what you say is true, but it has only been in recent decades that the Republican Party has been so closely associated with Christianity. The rise of Jerry Falwell's and Pat Robertson's "Moral Majority" is the geneses of the current situation. This represented the merger between the social conservatives and fiscal conservatives, creating a potent political force. But, Christianity only represents one religion and aren't the only ones responsible for political dysfunction. It's funny that you bring up Newt and his comment on Israel. A small ultra orthodox religious minority is exercising control over politics far beyond their actual numbers. In many ways things are becoming so bad in the streets that if the Palestinian issues were solved, then Israel would have to deal with this disruptive group. I've often said, tongue in cheek, that Israel could easily fall into a civil war over the ultra orthodox. Something else is that the fundamentalist Christian movements in the US are adding fuel to to the conflict. Their support of the concept of a "Greater Israel" and general opposition to Islam is making it more difficult to achieve a solution. As as practicing Jew, I guess from what I have written, it tells you on what side I come down on. For the vast majority of us, we'll trade land for security.
Dave Kube
1:12 pm on Thursday, February 9, 2012
@ Lyle...The genesis of the "moral majority" is the response to the incrementalistic approach by slowly encroaching extra politcal oppressive laws on the religious right of christianity to practice it's beliefs or hold it's values as important to them. You can't carry a Bible in schools but you can carry the writtings of any other faith without consequence? Is that not encroaching on religious boundaries. If you don't want prayer in schools...fine. If you don't want the 10 commandments on the walls...fine. You don't want memorials on the side of the road for loved one's killed...fine...take it all, it won't bother those whom value relationship over religion and it's symbols. But don't expell students for having prayer around the flag pole but say it's o.k. for another practicing religion to hold their cerimonies inside the building...that's justice? These are just a few examples, but i think my point is clear. You can't blame someone that stands up and says, "let's adhere to these values" in a system that clearly does not favor practicing christianity in hopes of maintaining a freedom of choice to do that and those with similar values gravitate to said "movement".
Lyle Ruble
1:38 pm on Thursday, February 9, 2012
@Dave Kube...I thought all forms of worship were prohibited. The only exception that I am aware of is Islamists who pray in private in accordance to Sharia. Could you please be more specific where Christians have been denied and other religions have been allowed.
Dave Kube
2:12 pm on Thursday, February 9, 2012
@ Lyle...As you may well know...prayer is not the same as praise which is not the same as worship. One needs only look to the internet to find numerous cases of students/teachers/employees being reprimanded/fired/expelled for merely carrying the bible in school, having it on their desk, or in the office.
Dave Kube
11:45 am on Thursday, February 9, 2012
When I was going to High School many eons ago on a land far far away with a long yellow brick road, our government also demonized the Native Americans as a whole and made them the enemy to give troops something to focus on...instead of "playing nice" and learning to share. Everything in documented history can be summed up in two words, power and position. And usually where monetary gain is involved, corruption ensued and a downward spiral of moral degredation.
Lyle Ruble
1:11 pm on Thursday, February 9, 2012
One of the purposes of religion is to explain the unexplainable. As science and reason have provided many explanations it has necessarily limited religion to areas of faith. Just as David has outlined, the supernatural nature of the universe can only be explained through the power of faith and subsequent belief. These are issues that can never be scientifically tested and therefore will remain the domain of religious understanding. That understanding is both personal and cultural and shouldn't be assaulted. If someone wants to believe that sometime a divine being will ascent into our midst to save us from ourselves, it is harmless unto itself. However, when someone is driven to take action in belief that they can make such occurrence to happen, then it becomes all our concern and our responsibility to oppose such action. One must remember, one's belief is your right but does not compel action.that will adversely affect others.
Dave Kube
1:20 pm on Thursday, February 9, 2012
@ Lyle...One...please expound on this.."However, when someone is driven to take action in belief that they can make such occurrence to happen, then it becomes all our concern and our responsibility to oppose such action." I'm not sure I follow this and I don't want to misinterpret what you are saying. Two...So based on what I just read from your posts...Should we be weighted toward teaching evolution over creation in our education system's science, history, math, etc. classes (like we currently are) or should we be teaching neither one based on the three rules of true science? I'm interested in hearing your response...seriously...because I fully respect you ropinion...
Lyle Ruble
2:13 pm on Thursday, February 9, 2012
@Dave Kube…I will try to answer your inquiry as simply as I can. There are Christian fundamentalists along with ultra nationalist Jewish groups who are attempting to push the takeover of the Temple Mount, destroy the Mosques, build the Third Jewish Temple, and as soon as an alter can be built, begin animal sacrifices. They acknowledge that this would directly lead to a war culminating in a battle at Har Megiddo (Armageddon). As the Book of Revelations reveals the second coming will occur during the battle, thus fulfilling the prophecy. The Jewish groups don’t care about the second coming, but the Christians do.
As with all scientific theory, it dependent on two things; 1) Does it adequately explain the phenomenon; and 2) Has it been proven to be false by the principle of exception. The Theory of Evolution meets both criteria; it adequately explains and has not been proven false. One of the problems with Creationism is that involves the “Divine Hand of G-D”. Unlike evolution, which can be observed, nothing about Creationism can be observed. Therefore, I support the teaching of evolution and don’t support the teaching of creationism as a part of science. I don’t have any objection to it being taught from a philosophical, historical or literary perspective. (continued)
Lyle Ruble
2:14 pm on Thursday, February 9, 2012
@Dave Kube...(continued) Proponents of Creationism have proposed a new argument based on the concept of a Divine Architect. In their arguments they admit that evolution is correct, but evolution is the method of creation and the Supreme Being created the method. Again, this compromise requires the assumption that there is a Divine Architect.
Dave Kube
3:00 pm on Thursday, February 9, 2012
@ Lyle...Please be careful with the use of the "Great Architect". In Christiany the Great Architect is not the "I Am" of the Old Testament Scripture. Please consult the Freemason Manual and Literature for more information on that. However, this is where you and I will shake hands and disagree because the theory of evolution has not been "proven" by any means. Adaption is what is happening around us today, not evolution, w/o getting into the scientific reasoning. The principle of the second law of thermodynamics testifies to the reality that evolution is not necessarily proven. In regards to the animal sacrifices, the Christians will not in effect be the cause of the Temple being rebuilt and stopping the animal sacrifices, the environmentalists will be. Not using that term in a negative sense either. You are correct about the Jewish groups not caring and the Christians will because of the preliminary distinction of belief in Jesus as the Christ. Which is fine, you and I can agree to disagree on this point. I wish I had more space to discuss these topics cuz this repeating because of character spacing is getting somewhat old. We should get together sometime to discuss this face to face as gentlemen, I would love to chat with you anytime...
Lyle Ruble
3:37 pm on Thursday, February 9, 2012
@Dave Kube...OK, I see your point and my language structure was misleading. I did not mean to imply that evolution had been proven correct, but it has not been proven false either.
As far as adaptation is concerned, that is how evolution works. A series of adaptations over a long enough period of time leads to new species. The birds are descended from raptor dinosaurs. This is the physiological response to changes in the physical environment.
Sorry about the term Divine Architect. My masonry slips in. in Judaism we use the name for the Creator as Elohim, to differentiate from other aspects of HE THAT IS.
I would be more than happy to meet with you sometime.
David Tatarowicz
1:40 pm on Thursday, February 9, 2012
@ Dave & Lyle
I love your discussion(s) and wish I had more time to participate --- maybe we should get together some evening over some vodka and beer and talk philosophy, politics, etc :-) -------- Sorry if I seemed to be picking on the Republicans, they just happen to be the ones most in the news now.
I can make similar cases about Democrats and their religions and non-religions --- for a while I belonged to the UU Church on Ogden, and I found them to be as exclusionary as any other religious type organization against those not in lock step with all their views -- or horror of horrors, anyone who would ever defend Catholics for any reason at all.
I myself --- Spiritual and definitely NOT religious !!
Dave Kube
2:17 pm on Thursday, February 9, 2012
@ David T...No apologies necessary...your opinion is just as valid as mine...I am not against Catholics by any means...I was merely discussing actual history with Lyle...didn't mean to offend if I did...I would love to hang out with you and discuss this more in detail...over a coffee and/or soda...sorry...stopped drinking in my early twenties...now's my chance to oppress everyone else with my personal conviction!!! GASP!!! O_o I was kidding...
David Tatarowicz
4:35 pm on Thursday, February 9, 2012
@Dave Kube --- no offense perceived or taken --- getting together sounds good --- I'll take the coffee, I stopped drinking sodas when i discovered martinis :-)
red
7:57 pm on Thursday, February 9, 2012
Especially the religion of liberalism.
Lyle Ruble
8:09 pm on Thursday, February 9, 2012
@red...The religion of liberalism?
Dave Kube
8:38 pm on Thursday, February 9, 2012
@ Lyle...Elohim, Yahweh, El Shaddai...Any one of those works for me...you and I mitr have more in common than u think...I hold the Sh'ma Yisrael as a very important Scripture from the Torah...I believe it to b entirely true in it's meaning although I am not a practioner of the Jewish faith...As far as evolution is concerned adaption is not the same as evolution because of the loss of chromasomal information during the process...that is a direct violation of the evolutionary idea...without getting to in depth of scientific information...trying to stay on topic...as far as ur apologizing...it's not necessary...that's just life in cyberspace...we all mistype/misspeak at times...so no apologies bcuz ur opinion is just as important as mine...
Lyle Ruble
8:55 pm on Thursday, February 9, 2012
@Dave Kube...The Sh'ma is the watch word of Judaism. If you understand the meaning then you have the most critical information.
Dave Kube
7:18 am on Friday, February 10, 2012
@ Lyle and David T...Thanks for the excellent conversation/thread...it had been my pleasure to discuss this topic as gentlemen without criticism and attacks. It has been extremely refreshing to have an adult conversation within the arena of poitics and religion. Not so easy in every thread...appreciate you guys...God bless you and your families...
Oh!...And yes I understand the Sh'ma meaning completely, "Hear, O Isreal:...." Deuteronomy 6:4 of the Penteteuch...
Dave Kube
8:42 pm on Thursday, February 9, 2012
@ David T...LOL!...thanks for the laff...ur awesome...look me up on facebook if u get time...i use the same profile pick there too and we can exchange info...God bless u and ur family...appreciate u sir...
David Tatarowicz
1:06 pm on Friday, February 10, 2012
Hey Dave K --- thanks for offer -- sent you invite
Keith Schmitz
8:15 am on Friday, February 10, 2012
One of the functions of religion is that it serves as a means of providing order and civility to society. When you think of it, a lot of what was around Old Testament law was a guide to living in 4,000 BCE and functioning well within the tribe.
So while there many guidelines to successfully getting along, much of it shouldn't be treated as gospel -- small g -- because these proscriptions are rooted in those times.
What it comes down to is true morality is based on doing the right thing when no one is looking to either curb you or praise you. Atheists and everyone else can certainly do that, and in some ways this might even make an atheist morally superior because there is expectation of a payoff. Just doing good because it is good.
Sadly, many see religion as a form of self-coercion. As I heard one minister put it, to truly follow God you have to forget yourself.
Lyle Ruble
8:45 am on Friday, February 10, 2012
@Kieth Schmitz...What is amazing is that the code set down so long ago has adapted and is flexible enough to have relevance even today. What you point out is morality has nothing to do with religion.
Keith Schmitz
12:20 pm on Friday, February 10, 2012
Lyle, my father was one of the most moral people I knew, and the only time he set foot in a church was later on when he got involved doing stained glass with my mother's Lutheran congregation.
Dave Kube
9:04 am on Friday, February 10, 2012
@ Keith...if we take Israel (or it's history by lineage) for just one example, the dispensation of law within the renewing of each covenant was their "governing rule". So their government and their faith coexisted and were married to one another. I agree w ur statement fully because I believe a good dose of humilty mite b in order in today's "government". Submitting one's rights to another is not always an easy thing to do especially when the person you r trying to submit to is overbearing, controlling, tyrranical, etc. but serving others is the greatest example of humility, and unfortunately, is vastly becoming a forgotten entity in our microwave society...
Keith Schmitz
12:19 pm on Friday, February 10, 2012
The point is that morality shouldn't come from the government but we are the one's who should be imparting it to the government, especially in a democracy. Unlike other forms of government, democracy does enable the governed to craft and morph the covenant, and that's why the only way it works is when a maximum number of us participate in it.
I wouldn't give up on humanity quite yet Dave. I've seen a lot of moral impulses coming out the younger generation.
Lyle Ruble
10:32 pm on Friday, February 10, 2012
@Dave Kube...I want to point something that I think is relevant concerning your statement about ancient Israel being, in essence, a theocracy. From the time in the wilderness until now there is a separation of powers. Even though Saul was anointed as the first king over the Israelite Confederation, followed by David; however, the power was clearly separated between the rulers and the priesthood. The priesthood was held to be independent of secular concerns and had power the king couldn't usurp. To this day each Jewish congregation is run by members of the congregation employing a rabbi as teacher and judge, and a kohane representing the functionary of the priesthood. Judaism does not hold creed, dogma or doctrine, without any type of religious structure greater than that of each independent congregation. Each Jew is able to decide for themselves the relevance of the Torah by interpreting the narratives for themselves. Therefore, one Jew cannot speak for another for what is the correct interpretation since it unique and personal to each. In addition, belief is only one aspect of the Jewish experience. I know quite a few Jews who are atheists yet remain good Jews and members of the community. Most, who are not Jewish realize that being a Jew is so much more than just a religious belief. Jews, as a identified group, represent the single largest family in the world, some 20 million.
Lyle Ruble
10:48 pm on Friday, February 10, 2012
@Dave Kube...I must let you know that I don't believe in the inerrancy of the Torah. I also believe that it is something that can't be taken literally. We have a tradition in Judaism that any reading can have a number of correct meanings. The narrative contains metaphors and other devices to delivery a variety of messages, revealing pertinent truths to the reader. There is even a secular message contained within and a narrative indicating the creation of the universe from the "Big Bang" forward. This is why we read and reread the same over and over again, we get new understanding each time. Using a terminology from a philosophical perspective, assuming their is a Supreme Being, then the Supreme Being is an "absentee watch maker" who put the system together and then put it in motion. Acknowledging the possibility of the existence of a Supreme Being is not the same as proving there is.
Dave Kube
2:50 pm on Monday, February 13, 2012
@ Lyle...I was just pointing out that I understood "some" of Isreal's history in the reference, not that all Jew's believe the same thing. I understand that there are distiguishable differences in the Jewish faith (just like there are in "Christianity"). Torah, Penteteuch, First Five Books Of The Old Testament...these were just refence names to Books (or groups there of) that happen to be placed in some Bibles. The references differ to show that I understood the differing beliefs...sorry to build any confusion...that wasn't my intent. I know that acknowledgement doesn't necessarily mean proof. But it doesn't make it false because of unbelief either. I totally understand your point and accept your valid opinion. I would be happy to discuss this with you again sometime over coffee...or?...
Lyle Ruble
3:39 pm on Monday, February 13, 2012
@Dave Kube...Drop me a message and we'll try to set up a meeting.
Dave Kube
9:08 am on Friday, February 10, 2012
@ Lyle...while it is true that u can have morality without religion...it still doesn't answer the question of how did that need for order or "morality" become part of us?...
Lyle Ruble
11:15 am on Friday, February 10, 2012
@Dave Kube...As we have discussed previously it is part of our nature to have a need for order. This is part of our survival strategy. I know that you and I don't agree on the role of evolution, but even if the narrative in Genesis is literal, then the fact is that we were endowed by the creator with that need for order. I don't think the function or importance of moral order is in question, but, the existence of a moral structure is one of the things that make us human.
Keith Schmitz
12:15 pm on Friday, February 10, 2012
For those of us who practice a faith there is or should be a recognition that were are endowed with is the spirt of our creator -- whom ever that is -- with the ability to be conscious of the need to go beyond ourselves.
Sorry for butting in, but this is a fascinating discussion.
Dave Kube
9:46 pm on Friday, February 10, 2012
@ Lyle...We have finally arrived at the point that my questions have been eluding to. I'm glad that both you and Keith have come to the same conclusion that the inherant desire for moral behavior has been put into us by the Creator for those that have "faith". I was waiting patiently for anyone to stand up for this truth for people with faith. So thank you for recognizing this as an important aspect in "faith".
@ Keith...I haven't given up on humanity at all...being very strong in my faith, i adhere to core values that some might deem as legalistic, but usually those are the ones that don't know (or take the time to) where I have came from/out of to understand how thankful I am to the Mighty God I have given my life to. However, I am not shortsighted enough to think that everyone agrees with my opinions/convictions of faith so I take time to educate myself on how to be "in season" in thought to deal with conversations of diffiering opinions on faith. The ardest part is always dealing with the emotional attachment that goes along with said faith. As I saw this in my own life, I set out to find better ways of becoming more relevant in my conversations with others. So I can say with all sincerity that my political affiliation is directly affected by my "religious" veiw point, yet I can reason through alot of the adgena filled propaganda that is out there...
Dave Kube
9:54 pm on Friday, February 10, 2012
@ Keith...Your not "butting in"...so please don't apologize for entering in the thread conversation...It's an open forum...Lyle and I have had many adult volleys on the patch before and I respect his opinion/thoughts/insights...so feel free to "butt in" anytime...appreciate you sir...God bless you and your family...