Actually, I wasn't. I'd have taken the hit for the good of the country. However, experts were saying it would throw us back into recession and tank the stock market, and that, I wanted to avert.

I'd be all for raising taxes on everyone -- just not in such a fragile economy.

My point was that the previous claims about the Bush Tax Cuts indicated that they were only for the rich. It seems that those claims have now been forgotten...

They weren't 'only' for the rich, although the rich certainly saved more money with them, especially with the cuts to the estate tax and the capital gains rate. How many poor people leave multi-million dollar estates and have significant stock holdings? When it comes to income tax, 15% of not very much is not that much more than 10% of not very much.

Of course they weren't only for the rich, but that's not the story that was being told back then...

@CowDung: Funny how the left suddenly forgets the "tax cuts for the rich mantra" when the time came. My family was very thankful that we paid less in taxes the past several years.

The fact was is EVERYONE received tax relief under the BUSH tax cuts. I only hope that, even though it affect about 2% of taxpayers, this will be known as the Obama tax hike.

Oh, you mean the Tea Pary that will not negotiate or compromise at all?

I agree.

The Tea Party won't compromise???

All we heard from B.O. during the last election was "balanced" approach which INCLUDE the rich paying "A little bit more" in taxes. Now all he wants to talk about is just raising taxes on the rich.

Yea, that's compromise!

did you forget the Nixon/Dean/Kissinger/JE Hoover era ?

Patriot...I pledge allegiance to Grover Norquist?

Obviouslly you don't know the meaning of the words "totalitrian" and "dictatorial".
Totalitarian dictators don't have negotiating teams at work to develop the terms of the agreement, nor do they allow voting on the terms.

Go drape yourself in your Gadsen flag and sulk.

Patriot ... There maybe only one way out of this ... Drink the Kool Aid !

@Peter-STOP SPENDING!!! Give me a break. Ive had to make numerous deep cuts in my personal budget since I dont have the ability to print money. Peter that is a very typical liberal remark.

Peter, show us who is not "paying their way".
The top 1% of income earners already pay 40%.
We take in 2.9 TRILLION in taxes. And yet we are spending nearly a Trillion more than we take in.

When you realize your in a hole, the first thing you have to do is stop digging!!!

Patriot ... They are coming to get you and your Lil Dog ToTo to !

Mr. Sensenbrenner offered no legislation on his own that had any support at all. He has provided no leadership as a senior congressman. To be sure his pension is still intact.

Check out some charts on the way wealth has been redistributed over the past thirty years and get back to me.

The President compromised from what he wanted.

Did any of the TeaPublicans?
The correct answer is no.

Get off of your oversized dead rear end and work for any wealth that you desire from your neighbors. I get so sick and tired of dead beats envious of people who have things they want.

Actually - all of my neighbors are middle class and benefit from the middle class tax cuts like I do. Point of fact, my neighbors all voted for the President on the basis of his economic plan

I am actually sick of Conservatives assuming they know so much about me and my life making broad - and untrue - generalizations about Progressive Americans.

FreeThoughtTroy wrote: "The President compromised from what he wanted..."
Riiiiiiight. B.O. asked for "a little bit more from the rich" along with spending cuts, then took the spending cuts off the table when he knew he had the Republicans against the tax wall.

The Republican House came out ahead with their compromise. Yes, making all the BUSH tax cuts permanent would have been the best deal, but at least they got the level raised from the $250,000 B.O. and Harry Reid wanted.

Now that the Obama tax hikes are in place, maybe Congress can work on the real problem
.
.
.
the outrageous spending we have been doing the last 4 years!!!

Patriot ... If you don't like here in FritzWalkerstan why don't you leave the country ?

I agree we should cut spending as well as raise revenue. However, that philosophy doesn't work as well as it ought to during a recession. Austerity can kill a fragile recovery. Maybe the time to have stopped overspending would have been back during the 2006 2007 boom years.

As I said, the House GOP has an opportunity to work out some meaningful cuts in the next two months.

Normal people have to adjust their finances with whats coming in compared to whats going out.

That's normally true, but what would you do if you hada very urgent expense during a time of lower income? Let's say your roof sprung a leak -- would you let it continue leaking to cause further damage? What if your child needed an operation in order to live -- you'd find the money somewhere, right? I can see not buying a new car and dropping the salon visits, but we have priorities.

Bankrupt solar companies are not one those priorities

Neither are trolleys.

Perhaps one should have told St. Reagan who tripled the Debt on his watch. Perhaps someone should have mentioned it to Bush the Lesser when he doubled the Debt while putting two wars and gigantic tax cuts of the national credit card, which then resulted in the Great Recession. Where were the Great Sensenbrenner and the great Paul "I like vouchers" Ryan? They were right there approving the debt that Bush was running up, that's where they were.

Hyprocrites.

Really? No sales taxes, no FICA, no gasoline tax, no excise tax? No property tax?

Randy, I would say Yes! Really! Do the math...do they "pay" the taxes up front...sure they do. Do they get back through Child tax credit, EIC, and various other programs more than they pay in...absolutely they do. I have a lady that works for me...makes $12/hr...has 3 kids. $12 x 40 x 52 = $25000 per year, gross income. Take her standard deductions, plus head of household, brings the net down to $8000. Pays 10% in federal income taxes for a total of $800 taxes paid, plus the 7.5 for SS, which is another $1700 roughly, and about $1000 in state income tax. Her actual take home check is probably around $1400 per month. So, if she paid sales tax on the full $1400...which obviously she doesn't, that would be another $1000 per year. She doesn't drive, so no gas tax, and rent is subsidized, so no property tax either. Let's do the math...$800, plus $1700, plus $1000, plus $1000 = $4500 in taxes paid. Now, she'll get EIC to the tune of about $5000 grand, plus another $1000 child credit for a total of $8000 returned. When I learned math, $8000-$4500 equals a net divident to her of $3500. So, no, she doesn't PAY any taxes.

This type of person who is working and trying to support a family is not the villain in this equation.

It's obvious that the New Year has not increased your factual knowledge one bit.

How about not spending one cent giving tax breaks to the oil industry, which is the largest in the world.

How about not purchasing $50 million per copy C-17 cargo planes which the Air Force does not want.

How about bringing 28,000 troops home from South Korea? How about not constructing a $500,000,000 base for 2,000 troops in Italy? How about bring the 60,000 troops home from Germany?

How about not purchasing 1,800 F-35 Joint Strike fighter bombers with an expected lietime cost of nearly $2,000,000,000,000?

How about getting rid of farm subsidies for large corporate farms like those owned by Cargill and others?

Just a couple of ideas.

Renee,

No one is saying they are a "villian". But to say they pay some sort of tax is either an uninformed statement, disingenuous, or a flat out lie.

On the other hand, my employee has the 3 kids, with 3 different men...which is her right to do so, but to have her "net" out more than she earns because of her bad choices is just crazy.

It's not hard NOT to be poor. When I was 18, I made $6.00/hr. at one job, and delivered the newspaper every morning, and lived on my own...with 2 other roommates. I didn't starve, nor did I get any assistance. Owned a car, made sure I had proper nutrition (okay, frozen pizza), and had money left over. Make good choices, you won't be poor. You don't have to be a genius, you don't even need to earn much more than minimum wage.

the AF does need c-17's its the go-to aircraft right now.
the F-35 is a typical .gov scam/abortion...should have kept the 22's or update the '16s
We need bases in other countries because we babysit the world. and they are strategic points- we need them ro be able to resaoanbly reach/protect our interests.

And give Troy a free spell-checker while we're at it.

Hell, Troy could use a dictionary.

Yes, and that yacht (not yaght) will likely be built in Norway, Finland or South Korea. What evidence do you have that rich people spend money more wisely? The 40,000 sq. ft. mansions? The use of offshore tax havens? The expensive club memberships?

Also incllude a spell checker for James like the one Troy is getting.

The fact that their rich means they probably save/spend more wisely....ships are built all over the place. Who frigging cares?
What about the ipad you typed this on....
When the .gov spends 2 million on a company, it took 20 million to do it...

Jobs are created by demand as we know. Until the working and middle-income groups have spendable income again the growth will remain stagnant. At the same time, I think we need to focus on buying American-made products to address offshoring. As long as we keep supporting Apple (for example) as they pay 23.5 Chinese workers $ .31/hour instead of one U.S. worker even the minimum wage of $7.25/hour, we're going to have a problem. Especially since $7.25/hour isn't enough money to feed, clothe, and provide health insurance for an average-size family in this country.

The profitability in paying workers $ .31/hour is not something offshorers would willingly walk away from. But at some point even they will address the fact that they are undermining the U.S. economy and strike some sort of balance. If they don't how is the problem going to be resolved? Even the corporate giants will get hurt if too few can afford to buy their products/services.

I wonder how much Apple products will cost if they have to increase their labor costs from $0.31/hour to $7.25/hour. Nobody would be able to afford to buy a Mac that costs $30,000.

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2012/10/25Apple-Reports-Fourth-Quarter-Results.html

Or maybe Apple could profit $6 billion (yes - with a B) instead of $6.6 Billion (yes, with a B)

Bren: You make an excellent point about buying American made products. The problem is USA doesn't manufacture much anymore. Try to buy a small kitchen appliance made in the USA, there are none. A few years ago you had a choice between a US made electric fry pan for $60, or an import for $30. Because everyone was already stretched on a budget, they all went for the low cost import.
This is a problem that took a long time to hit us hard. Clinton gave China MFN status, and this problem has been brewing for that long. Couple that with stockholders insisting on a good return, and we have major outsourcing.
The whole fiscal cliff is a joke- the Treasury can actually rob Peter to pay Paul for another two months, but the media doesn't tell us that part. This plays right into the hands of politicians who slam dunk a crappy deal and then claim it needed to be done to avert the cliff.
For too long we have had a two party system playing games with our money and our trust. In reality they are looking out for themselves and none of us.

Troy:

Increasing labor cost by 2300% isn't going to trim profits by only 10%...

CowDung:
I do imagine you are right. I pretty much pulled those numbers out of the air.

I hope it doesn't miss the point that Apple makes multiple billions of dollars. Increaseing labor to American Labor can still keep the price of products low. Of course, if the President's Jobs Bill can actually get a vote and pass, Apple could get some major tax breaks to bring those jobs back here.

Troy:

The 'billions of dollars' figure is irrelevant. The company also spent billions of dollars running the business. Their net profit margin is around 20-25%, and their gross margin was around 45%. If they took zero profits, they still couldn't afford to raise their labor rates by that much without passing the cost along to the consumers by way of raising their prices. Apple products are already expensive--they won't be able to compete if they have to raise their prices even higher.

I guess that is just one thing we will just have to disagree with.

Their net profit margin could go to 10-15%. That's still a nice profit. Most of the sales are coming from America, I imagine. Just think how much more they could sell if more had disposible enough income to be able to purchase.

Troy:

Again, there's a 2300% difference in the labor rates that Bren indicated. That doesn't include the cost of benefits for the US worker, and it assumes that they will be paid at the minimum wage level (unlikely to be true).

Not sure what percentage of the product cost is labor, but it really isn't realistic to think that such a difference in labor cost is insignificant enough to be paid for by cutting profits...

FreeThought Troy wrote: "Too bad research does not show this to be true..."

Ya got any details on that research Troy?

http://useconomy.about.com/od/Politics/p/Trickle-Down-Economics-Does-It-Work.htm

There were always other factors. All of which were gov. spending or banking to support the tax cuts. By themselves, trickle down only increases unemployment.

Troy what is your experience in the business world? How many people are on your payroll?

Troy, did you bother to read the link you provided? Several times Kimberly Amadeo mentioned that it was hard to conclude that tax cuts ALONE spurred the economy. Every time it has been used to stimulate the economy, other tools have been used as well, increased deficit spending with Reagan and lowering of interest rates under Bush 43.

The problem isn't that we don't tax too much, we just spend waaaaaay more than we should.

Cow, Apple indicated that they would have to charge 30% more for iPods and iPads without foreign workers. I think we can reasonably surmise a hefty profit margin after business operating costs, R&D, etc., are factored in. Apple claimed to be responding for high demand, but I'm not so willing to shoulder the responsibility for their use of FoxCon. I suggest that using FoxCon allows them to fill the cash registers faster and deeper than using American workers, parts, and good 'ole fashioned waiting lists (if needed).

Craig, I agree about finding U.S.-made products. It's our job to put on the pressure for U.S. goods and keep it on. It won't happen overnight, that's for certain. I also agree that giving China MFN status was a tragic mistake, not just for our economy but also for the citizens of China. A well-funded government structure is very difficult to destabilize. They are likely to remain socialist for the forseeable future.

Anti, I think what the government spends money on is as important to consider as how much. How much taxpayer money went to pay for three unfunded wars (Gulf War, Afghanistan, and Iraq Invasion) in our recent past? How much was raided from the Social Security corpus? Even though they happened in the past, we continue to feel the effects from these and other actions.

OK Bren, 30% more would move the Apple pricepoint from 'more than the competition' to 'way more than the competition'. How much marketshare do you think they will lose by bringing production to the US?

Keep in mind that the electronics inside the units will still be made overseas. I seem to recall that it wasn't too long ago that Apple was facing bankruptcy. Keeping their prices in line with their competition while offering new products had a lot to do with their recovery.

http://www.politico.com/playbook/1212/playbook9647.html

"–WSJ A1, “Corporate Taxes on Table in Cliff Talks,” by Damian Paletta, Janet Hook and Carol E. Lee, with Jared A. Favole: “The White House has told Republicans it would include an overhaul of the corporate-tax code as part of any deal to reduce the deficit, ... a move to court business groups ... White House officials ... cited a corporate-tax plan the administration unveiled in February but said they weren't wedded to any specifics. ... [T]he White House also slightly lowered its target for new tax revenue to $1.4 trillion, down from Mr. Obama's initial offer of $1.6 trillion"

It appears the President is willing to do just that.

Awesome deals for Wisconsin people looking to buy a firearm!
Illinois gun owners would rather sell them cheap than let the Government have them.
Red blooded Americans can go to Illinois for a great deal on used firearms. The best part: Uncle Sam doesn't know who buys them.
A better investment than gold.

Wow, way to throw a racist rant into a somewhat rational discussion. Because of course everyone on welfare must be black, right? If we want to eliminate racism, the first and EASIEST step is to stop equating race with socio-economic status.

You know WPN, I stood up for you before when Taoist Croc went off the ledge and labelled you a racist. I asked for proof and he went into conspiracy mode.

Unfortunately you have just proven him right. And you have really pissed me off since Tao is rarely right about anything. Why don't you take your outdated beliefs, find another blog that may tolerate this crap, and stop embarrassing yourself.

Re-posting isn't usually acceptable, and I have posted this link before, but this clip is the best response I have to a post like WPN1488's:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTT1qUswYL0

What an idiot.

The Anti-Alinsky
Thank you , Sir.

Really? Please explain to me how investments equal spending. As Obama stated we need to invest in education, roads & bridges ect. More of that liberal magic and fuzzy math that common folk just dont understand

Diplomacy is where everyone is equally dissatisfied with the results. ; )

LOLZ....
dont worry...you tax rate for a variety of medical crap just went up....yay obamacare!

Mike that comparison is freeking awesome!

Depends on your ammo stash. If it is healthy you'll live longer.

@Steve: Gun sales in November and December were at an all time high, so you are not alone in those feelings.

I saw that report today. It was expected as I herd a few stories of people stocking up on AR type weapons. I was going to purchase 1000 rounds of .223 ammo for a snowmobiling trip we have coming up, one of the guys has an AR15. It's on a LONG backorder.

Thanks liberals. You not only increased the private arsenal but ruined our fun.

I think it was the perfect storm for gun sales: What happened in CT and the pending cry for restrictions was the first part. Then the Fiscal cliff created a Franken storm.
With the talk of taxing ammo, it s likely there will be some hoarding.
Not a bad thing for manufacturers of ammo, aftermarket magazine sales, etc.
I have been hearing "buy used", so Obama don't know you have them...this is indicative of the lack of trust people have in Government.
Of course the Liberals have been trying to shred the constitution for years.
"Chancellor Obama, I don't got no guns."

...I lost all my guns in a boating accident...

Obama...greatest gun salesman in the world.

EXACTLY
cept you have the bleeding hearts whining that the poor are paying more somehow...
The "poor" in this country pay ZERO tax, use most of the .gov services, and can still manage the 50" LCD...
EVERYONE should pay a fixed percentage across the board. period.

... and Progressives are accused of class warfare.

so paying the same RATE across the board is class warfare.,...wow.

Yes.

Yes, it is.

how?

Glad to see insults in the face of the truth.

You still don't know a thing about me OR my family.

You need to keep them out of it, scumbag

One: you insulted my parents and that is out of line
Two: I have managed employees – another example of you speaking out of ignorance though that should not surprise anyone
Three: I have worked in manufacturing so am not ignorant of the process
Four: your “file” about me are stereo types and flat out lies…much like your opinions and argument style.

Time to grow up, Young.

I am not all that enthusiastic about the payroll tax expiring, either. Just glad the rest of my tax cuts are permanent and I still have my mortgage deduction. For those of you making more than $400k this year, please remember you have the Bush Era tax rate UP TO $400k. The middle class thanks you for stepping up, finally

Having the money to spend will actually help me spend it. Losing the home mortgage tax credit would pretty much kill a lot of my spending as it would a vast majority of the middle class. Glad there are some willing to look out for us and not just the uber rich..

No one is enthusiastic about paying more to the government. That's a given. But the payroll tax (FICA) is a different thing from income tax, and it's for a different purpose.

That said, every person with earned income is now paying another 2% on the first dollar earned up to $105K, roughly. People fortunate enough to earn over $400K ($450K for couples) are only paying the extra 4% on the amount that exceeds $400K. On all monies earned below that figure, their income tax remains the same. I'm not how sure this affects the percentage of total income earned for each group of people, and it's too early in the morning for me to try to do it.

I think we all have shared a sacrifice in the interest of solving our growing debt problem. As for spending cuts, those are still to be negotiated.

Ya well how about the very large percentage that dont pay a single time in federal income tax, rather they are living off the Government Dole. Yes some really are in need but a large portion of those free loaders are just that. FREE LOADERS!! Completely able to work but choose not as they would take a pay cut.
So enough with your tax the wealthy, thanks wealthy for finally stepping up. CLASSS WAREFARE at its best.
Our Country has never been so divided in our history that under this President

Yes, Patriot. FREE LOADERS!! Like Veterans and the military. SSI Seniors who spent their working lives paying income tax. Students. The working poor. It’s class warfare alright.

Troy:

I believe that Patriot was pretty specific in who he was including with his 'freeloader' comment. Please don't misrepresent his statement by extrapolating it to include everyone that legitimately receives benefits from the government...

"Completely able to work but choose not as they would take a pay cut. "

Maybe so, but the number of individuals are so small it does not even come close to addressing anything – let alone the compromised tax policy. This rhetoric is Conservative media based nonsense

Patriot's post was unclear when he spoke about the large percentage who don't pay a single dime in federal income tax and then went on to speak about people on the dole although they could work. He failed to acknowledge the group of working people who because of low income and the use of tax deductions, exemptions and credit end up owing no federal income tax yet are taking no government aid. They's just people trying to get by the best they can without having to rely on government aid.

For Patriot's information, there were years where I owed no federal income tax and took no advantage of the EITC or child-care credit, but I did pay self-employment tax. I wasn't taking any other kind of government aid, and I don't enjoy being called a free-loader for not owing tax.