When it Comes to Teacher Evaluations, Shorewood May Go it Alone
School Board decides not to join 28 other Wisconsin districts studying new system for reviewing teachers.
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In September, 14 Shorewood School Board members, citizens and teachers formed a committee to work on a new grievance procedure for the district. That document defined teacher work rules, and board members said they wanted a fair policy — one not so stacked in the district's favor. School officials took a similar route with a new employee handbook.
Now, school officials can add teacher evaluations to a long list of matters to tackle.
Reform of how districts measure their educators is on the horizon in Wisconsin.
Gov. Scott Walker and state Schools Superintendent Tony Evers formed the Educator Effectiveness Design Team last winter to create new framework for teacher and principal evaluations.
Shorewood Superintendent Blane McCann said a portion of the teacher evaluation system will likely be based on student test scores and speculated 50 percent would mirror the current practice — administrators observing teachers in the classroom.
The state Senate has already weighed in on the discussion, passing a piece of legislation last week allowing districts to fire or discipline teachers based on the results of students' performance and test scores.
Not all School Board members agreed at Tuesday night's meeting to the notion of convening a diverse group in Shorewood to discuss the matter, but they were consistent on the fact they wanted to take an active role.
Not ready to team up with others
The board unanimously voted against joining nearly 30 other southeastern Wisconsin school districts in a consortium tasked with creating a new teacher evaluation system and influencing state officials constructing a standardized evaluation system.
Board members said they didn't know enough about the group headed by Pewaukee and Waukesha school officials to confidently vote yes, but may revisit the matter at a future meeting.
"The whole idea of bringing together a diverse body with diverse views is that hopefully there will be an exchange of information that results in the development of a good product," board member Michael Mishlove said. "Doesn't always work that way; it might not work that way."
The Southeastern Wisconsin Teacher Evaluation Consortium hopes to tap teachers and board members from all over the region to create a new method for evaluating teachers after about two to four years of research, McCann said.
Board member Rob Reinhoffer said Shorewood might want to take the same approach to evaluations as the district took to the employee handbook and grievance policy.
"We have a lot of smart people in Shorewood...we can bring them in and work on this together and create a model," Reinhoffer said.
"I don't know how this model is going to reflect the values of our community, if we sign up (for the consortium) and do nothing else."
McCann wants district to participate
It would cost the district $1 or $2 per student to participate, depending how many districts sign up. McCann, who recommended that the board vote to join the group, estimated it would cost Shorewood about $2,000.
"Some people say, 'Why join when the state is going to do it to us?' " McCann said. "But I think we should try to become part of the conversation and try to influence the conversation regarding teacher evaluations.
"It would be nice to link into some of the research that's going to come from some experts."
Shorewood teachers at Tuesday's meeting balked at the notion of an evaluation method based on student achievement or test scores.
"I think most of our teachers here, when they say they teach in Shorewood, are very proud of that," "I think it’s the philosophy of being judged on a test...but there is more to it."
"I'm not convinced that this is best practice for teacher evaluation," Lake Bluff Elementary teacher Sachin Pandya said. "There are other models to investigate.
"I'm concerned we are being sucked into the movement toward just examining data."
High school science teacher Cynthia Zauner said there's much more to teaching than just test scores including some intangible aspects you can't measure.
Some board members said with the cost associated with joining the consortium, the nature of state politics right now and the idea that they may not really have a true voice among 28 other districts, participating in the consortium may not be ideal for the district.
"This is in preparation for a (state) mandate, I understand that, but I have to say given the actions of our state government of late, I just have no reason to believe they would ever take any input for anyone on this matter," School Board member Colin Plese said.
Will districts' voices be heard?
High School social studies teacher Debra Schwinn said she shares Plese's concern after thousands of teachers in February and March protested out on the doorsteps of the Capitol and their concerns were still ignored by lawmakers.
"In an era where every dollar needs to be used to the maximum benefit for every student...I need to understand a little better about what our direct benefit is going to be," she said.
Mishlove said he's pessimistic about whether the consortium would be able to influence the state on the structure of a new evaluation system and said it's a matter of capacity rather than structure.
Some local teachers said there is talk of some districts moving to a model where bonuses would be linked to teacher performance evaluations.
"I have real concerns about pay based on student achievement, especially in a district such as ours that doesn't have a lot of room for improvement," Mishlove said.
Lyle Ruble
6:31 am on Thursday, October 27, 2011
I support the school board's decision to not join the consortium. We have a unique community that doesn't necessarily march in step with the other aforementioned districts. Basing teacher effectiveness on student test scores falls far short in our situation in Shorewood. We already have a "top of the list" performing student population. We share this position with other North Shore communities such as White Fish Bay, Nicolet and Homestead.
If the state government's position is to allow as much local flexibility as possible, then continued independence is critical.
CowDung
8:39 am on Thursday, October 27, 2011
What would have been the commitment level to participate in the consortium? I would think that it would have been a good idea to participate in the exchange of ideas and then bring that information back to decide what is best for Shorewood. By choosing to not participate, we will be limited to our own perspectives when having the discussion. I don't see how having the discussions with other districts will be harmful.
Adam W. McCoy
12:37 pm on Thursday, October 27, 2011
@CowDung, One of the questions board members had Tuesday night, was whether there was a deadline on joining the consortium. The consortium meets again Nov. 14, and the board may decide to join in a couple weeks when it meets again, if they haven't missed a deadline. Some of the board said they'd like to have some more information before joining. As far as commitment goes, consortium members renew annually and aren't required to use anything recommendations coming out of the group.
CowDung
1:13 pm on Thursday, October 27, 2011
If they aren't required to use any of the recommendations that come out of the group, it seems to be rather obvious to me that we should join. I think that the $2k would be well spent for the exchange of information.
Vicki Bennett
7:30 am on Thursday, October 27, 2011
I'm so glad that the voice of reason lives in Shorewood. When you base a teacher's job or livelihood on the students' test scores, you force the teacher to teach to the test and test taking. It's a step back in the education of our children. We've spent years studying how best to teach the "whole child" and not teach to a test score. Trust me when I say that it is much more valuable to teach children how to "problem solve" than how to better take a test. Everything we do in life is problem solving. Seldom do we grow up and have to take "standardized tests" in our real lives other than possibly a one time professional exam depending on your career choice. Let's continue to give our children the best education possible in Shorewood. Our teachers deserve the best too!!
CowDung
8:36 am on Thursday, October 27, 2011
If you read the article, it was pretty clear that administrators observing teachers in the classroom is a huge part of the evaluation. I don't think that test scores should be dismissed completely, nor should they be the only factor. Student performance does have to be taken into consideration at some level though.
Adam W. McCoy
1:02 pm on Thursday, October 27, 2011
Shorewood has long been blessed with high student achievement.
The question of how quality teaching is measured and whether to incorporate standardized test scores into the equation becomes more germane in districts like MPS, where standardized test scores are historically mediocre. Obviously the question has been asked, how we bridge the gap in Milwaukee, but does the answer lie in test scores?
CowDung
1:11 pm on Thursday, October 27, 2011
I disagree. I think that test scores deserve a place in the evaluation equation for all schools.
As far as the 'Milwaukee gap' goes, I think that the biggest of the problems lies outside the classroom. Parental involvement in their child's education is a huge factor in the success of a student.
Adam W. McCoy
1:32 pm on Thursday, October 27, 2011
I completely agree with you that a large part of student success in school starts at home. But, with that in mind, is it unfair to teachers in Milwaukee and Shorewood to be judged on the same scale, when they're educating children with different circumstances. Not to say parents in Shorewood are any better than those in Milwaukee, but let's face it, there's a big difference in income level and likely the way their family is structured. Schools in the inner city are educating some highly-disadvantaged children.
N. Peske
1:58 pm on Thursday, October 27, 2011
My concern with putting too much emphasis on test scores is that it penalizes teachers for working with students who don't test well, which would pressure teachers to focus more on teaching younger kids how to do multiple choice tests rather than teaching them what they most need to know. Also, $2K to get some ideas on teacher evaluations might be a good idea if there were NO other sources for information, and we were struggling with a group of teachers who weren't performing up to snuff--is that really the case here? I just don't see why we should cut a check for $2K as if that were the only source for quality information on evaluating teachers.
CowDung
2:10 pm on Thursday, October 27, 2011
Adam:
I think that the 'fairness' depends on how the test scores are being used. There is nothing that says that two school districts have to use test scores the same way or that they have to use them with the same weighting in the evaluation formula.
Even in Milwaukee we certainly cannot have the expectation that rising test scores are required in order for a teacher to have a positive evaluation. I would think that the year to year trends of student testing would be much more telling of the effectiveness of a teacher than the up or down 'blip' that is typically seen in test scores each year. The test scores may also be used to indicate weakness in a specific skills area that a teacher may need to improve upon.
I would even go as far to say that I think that it is probably more fair to use test scores as part of the evaluation of Shorewood teachers than it is for the Milwaukee city teachers. While Shorewood has wonderful teachers, we also have very involved parents that make their jobs a lot easier than that of the average MPS teacher, and it is more likely that test scores are a reflection of the teacher's abilities than the students' home life...
NorthShoreNancy
8:15 am on Thursday, October 27, 2011
Shorewood does it right... again.
Alice Keane
9:12 am on Thursday, October 27, 2011
It is so refreshing to read this and hear, through these comments, the respect and mindfulness all parties have about this very important issue. It is clear that all see teacher evaluation as something that does need improvement but that must not be done in lock-step fashion, but in a way that benefits the students. Having worked in Shorewood for 21+ years, I know that what drives the teachers in this district is learning, improving and constantly finding new ways to help all children reach their potential! They will have very valuable ideas on how to evaluate teaching. They hold themselves to very high standards and challenge themselves constantly. Their ideas must be sought and respected. Thank you all for respecting this process.
Alice Keane
The Donny Show
10:19 am on Thursday, October 27, 2011
Here is what teachers should be teaching the kids.
• Life isn't fair. The concept of justice - everyone should be treated fairly - is a worthy and worthwhile moral imperative on which our nation was founded. Justice and economic equality are not the same. As Jagger said, "You can't always get what you want." No matter how you try to "level the playing field," some people have better luck, skills, talents or connections that land them in better places. Some seem to have advantages in life but squander them, others play the modest hand they're dealt and make up the difference in hard work and perseverance, and some find jobs on Wall Street and eventually buy houses in the Hamptons. Is it fair? Stupid question.
• Nothing is "free." Protesting with signs that seek "free" college degrees and "free" health care make you look like idiots, because colleges and hospitals don't operate on rainbows and sunshine. There is no magic money machine to tap for your meandering educational careers and "slow paths" to adulthood, and the 53 percent of taxpaying Americans owe you neither a degree nor an annual physical. While I'm pointing out this obvious fact, here are a few other things that are not free: overtime for police officers and municipal workers, trash hauling, repairs to fixtures and property, condoms, Band-Aids and the food that inexplicably appears on the tables in your makeshift protest kitchens. Real people with real $ are underwriting your civic temper tantrum.
The Donny Show
10:21 am on Thursday, October 27, 2011
Continued from above....
• Your word is your bond. When you demonstrate to eliminate student loan debt, you are advocating precisely the lack of integrity you decry in others. Loans are made based on solemn promises to repay them. No one forces you to borrow money; you are free to choose educational pursuits that don't require loans, or to seek technical or vocational training that allows you to support yourself and your ongoing educational goals. Also, for the record, being a college student is not a state of victimization. It's a privilege that billions of young people around the globe would die for --- literally.
• A protest is not a party. Most of the protestors are doing this only for attention and fun. Serious people in a sober pursuit of social and political change don't dance jigs down Sixth Avenue like attendees of a Renaissance festival. You look foolish, you smell gross, you are clearly high and you don't seem to realize that all around you are people who deem you irrelevant.
• There are reasons you haven't found jobs. The truth? Your tattooed necks, gauged ears, facial piercings and dirty dreadlocks are off-putting. Nonconformity for the sake of nonconformity isn't a virtue. Occupy reality: Only 4 percent of college graduates are out of work. If you are among that 4 percent, find a mirror and face the problem. It's not them. It's you.
Lyle Ruble
12:38 pm on Thursday, October 27, 2011
@The Donny Show....How did you get from teacher evaluation procedures to your diatribe? What relevance does it have on the subject in question?
The Donny Show
12:59 pm on Thursday, October 27, 2011
Well, Lyle, let me explain. Part of the article talks about teaching to the test. My comments relate to what they SHOULD be teaching. This is how I would like to see them evaluated. As a SHS grad, I know many of the staff members then had an agenda they taught too. Understand?
Lyle Ruble
7:24 pm on Thursday, October 27, 2011
@The Donny Show...I don't understand.
The Donny Show
10:33 am on Friday, October 28, 2011
Some causes are lost. Sorry Lyle.
Lyle Ruble
12:17 pm on Friday, October 28, 2011
@The Donny Show...I don't see that what you are proposing is something that is teachable in a formal setting. Schools only are able to teach so much and the rest must be learned or experienced from elsewhere. I don't know where or how you acquired your cynicism, but to project your limited perceptions as a general reality is a fallacy. It is a reality only for you. Of all who have successfully attended SHS, each has their own reality of the experience.
What you are really objecting to is what you see as a progressive or liberal agenda being taught in the Village of Shorewood. The majority of Shorewood supports these values and curriculum. To evaluate teachers performance on your cynical views is not only wrong but does not support community values.
We in Shorewood are a different group in comparison with the conservative centers of the state. This is precisely why the Republican controlled state legislatiure decided that we couldn't stay in our current legislative districts. It is honorable, noble, and pariotic to speak against tyranny and exploitation. We Shorewoodians have a reputation for doing just that. I am proud of my community and if you feel that we a doing a disservice to our youth, you have the right to speak your piece. But, that in no way makes it a reality or warrants special attention..
Nick Hayes
2:16 pm on Thursday, October 27, 2011
The consortium should be studying Shorewood, not the other way around. We have great teachers because we have a community that generally supports them. We have a great community because we have great schools. Public schools make neighborhoods, and for that matter, states. Nothing good can come from an evaluation process that doesn't understand these basic relationships.
Vicki Bennett
6:00 pm on Thursday, October 27, 2011
The cone heads and the pin heads have invaded the discussion again. I did read the article and was saying that our school board is doing it right. Let's avoid trying to make the school the moral compass. It always troubles me when those who know the least about something have the most to say about it.
CowDung
8:43 am on Friday, October 28, 2011
Those with the least to say are the ones that typically respond by calling people names...
How would joining the consortium or bringing test scores into the evaluation formula be an attempt to make our school 'the moral compass'?
Margaret Schmidt
10:07 pm on Thursday, October 27, 2011
How would teachers of some of our best programs, such as orchestra and the performing arts, be assesed? What measures would be used? How would we assess PE, world languages, and art? No standardized tests exist for "non-core" academic areas. Is it really possible to identify the impact a single teacher has on a single student, especially once the student enters SIS or SHS and has 6 - 8 different teachers /day? Students thrive or fail for myriad reasons, many of which are manifest before the student enters the classroom. Conversely, what a student learns in one class may impact his growth in another academic area. How do we measure this?
We have structures in place in our district to effectively evaluate teacher performance. We need our principals in the classroom doing regular evaluations and providing effective, critical feedback. Since administrators are stretched too thin, perhaps a process of peer-mentoring/ coaching could be established, wherein teachers observe and coach other teachers. An art teacher may be the best coach for another art teacher; a music teacher most likely has better insight about the pedagogy of teaching music.
As far as I can tell, the new legislation does not require districts to use test scores to evaluate teacher effectiveness. Shorewood residents, including board members, generally do not support the governor's initiatives, especially with regard to education. We are within our rights to create our own mechanism for evaluating teachers.
Bob McBride
10:39 pm on Thursday, October 27, 2011
True, however if you do you won't have Scott Walker to blame if you don't like the results. Which could be a bummer. Also, I'd advise against making definitive statements about your history regarding footwear worn to school until the criteria are established. You may have just shot yourself in the foot with the statement below, making denials in the future much harder without being accused of flip-flopping on the issue.
CowDung
8:49 am on Friday, October 28, 2011
Margaret:
Is it really such a big deal the test scores don't cover the specialty areas you mentioned? I don't think anyone has proposed that test scores be the only thing considered in the evaluation process. I have no reason to think that the administrators will suddenly decide to abandon observation of teachers in favor of using only test scores for teacher evaluation...
Margaret Schmidt
10:09 pm on Thursday, October 27, 2011
For the record, I've never worn flip-flops to school.
Margaret Schmidt
10:54 pm on Thursday, October 27, 2011
Hmm, you may have got me. I have worn flip-flops when I show up for open swim. And probably when I go in on the weekends to work....but certainly never to teach! Maybe I'll wear them to the next parent-teacher conference, just to see if anyone notices....
Bob McBride
11:01 pm on Thursday, October 27, 2011
Since you don't really know which direction this may go, perhaps wear them with socks. That way, if necessary, you could always say you hadn't intended on wearing them, but the lightbulb was burned out in your closet - or something.
Margaret Schmidt
10:22 am on Friday, October 28, 2011
@ cowdung - Of course no one is proposing only using test scores.
I guess for me it is a big deal that 1/2 of the curricular areas are not assessed by the WKCE tests or other statewide or nationally administered tests if test scores would be a component of teacher evaluation. "Shorewood Superintendent Blane McCann said a portion of the teacher evaluation system will likely be based on student test scores and speculated 50 percent would mirror the current practice — administrators observing teachers in the classroom."
The consortium which the board voted not to join has contracted with the Value Added Research Center (VARC) out of UW-Madison. VARC works on developing evaluation systems based on 'achievement data', aka test scores. My point is that, having read numerous articles about VARC and other such organizations, no one seems to address the issue of the non-core academic areas. The response to this issue given at the board meeting was vague at best. These are often the areas where kids who may struggle in some academic areas thrive (art, theater etc). How do we quantify the impact of these curricular areas and the teachers would teach them? So, yes, it is a big deal. Otherwise I wouldn't have made a point of addressing it.
Margaret Schmidt
10:23 am on Friday, October 28, 2011
* teachers who teach them (oops)
CowDung
10:36 am on Friday, October 28, 2011
Joining the consortium would have given Shorewood a great opportunity to bring up the discussion of evaluating teachers in non-assessed subject areas.
I guess I don't see it as a big deal because I can understand the concept of using evaluation criteria besides test scores for the teachers in those types of classes. One of the gains achieved by going to an evaluation system is that we can step away from the 'one size fits all' method. The formula used for math teachers doesn't have to be the same as the formula used for art teachers...
Lyle Ruble
12:27 pm on Friday, October 28, 2011
@CowDung...Something you need to realize is that we don't need these other districts or the state to decide on how we will evaluate our teachers. It is our community, our children and we as a community are more than capable of deciding for ourselves. I would venture to guess that we have more intellectual capacity and talent in this little square mile of the state than any other area of equal size.
My sister has raised two successful children in this school system and I have raised two successful children in also. All four have excelled in their college performance and their lives. As they say; "the proof is in the pudding", and the product coming out of the Shorewood Schools is of superior quality. Even you have admitted that one of the reasons for you and family to locate here was because of the schools. All I can say is: "if ain't broke, don't fix it"; and it ain't broke!
CowDung
12:41 pm on Friday, October 28, 2011
Lyle;
We aren't looking for ways to 'fix' the 'unbroken' Shorewood school system. We are looking for a good way to evaluate teacher performance. Even the highest performing employees can benefit from proper performance reviews.
We may not need anyone else to decide, but I think that the attitude that we can go it on our own and refusing to exchange information with any outside entity is not really a positive for us or them. Isn't it a bit dangerous to presume that we are somehow more intelligent and/or talented than everyone else that might be participating in the consortium? It's pretty easy to think that one has all the answers if they never listen to the ideas of anyone else...
Lyle Ruble
1:20 pm on Friday, October 28, 2011
@CowDung...I am sure that where you work you are given annual reviews and I would also speculate that they are subjective. To receive PE, you had to have so much relevant experience and pass a series of examinations. That certification doesn't guarantee that you are a competent PE, but it may be a requirement to obtain your current position. Your employer doesn't judge you be tests but by performance of the job duties and projects assigned. In the case of education the finished product is an educated young adult. In this is the problem, how do you single out a teacher when each child is exposed to scores of teachers during their education. If a child does not finish school educated then it is not an individual teacher to hold accountable but the system. The reason why a seniority system was decided upon in the first place was to keep the system as objective as possible. In addition, teacher contracts are not automatically renewable and must be reviewed and another contract offered. To say that some teachers haven't slid through the system would be a misrepresentation. This whole issue has been blown out of proportion. Rather than focus on the individual teacher we should be focused on systems and evaluate them for the end product. If a company puts out a poor product, the customer doesn't care who caused the problem, they will hold the company accountable and just not buy it.
CowDung
2:09 pm on Friday, October 28, 2011
Lyle:
One could argue that each project that I am assigned is equivalent to a test, and my ability to complete those projects is one of the factors that is considered for my annual evaluation. I don't think that the subjectivity that is inherent with evaluations is necessarily a bad thing--it allows administration to consider things that cannot be reflected accurately by the raw test data.
With test scores, teachers can be singled out by comparing the performance of their students in a specific subject with the performance of students taking that same exact subject with another teacher. The performance of students can also be compared with students from previous years. Declining performance can be an indication of the teacher losing effectiveness. It may also be an indication of the system losing effectiveness. This would be where the direct observations would be used to supplement the test score data to help everyone see the complete picture and determine what is the best course of action.
You are correct that the end user doesn't care who within the company is responsible for the crappy product, but I would argue that the company certainly cares. If fixing a system requires modification of the curriculum or methodology, then that is what should be done. If fixing a system requires the replacement of a couple of employees, that is what should be done.
The Donny Show
10:32 am on Friday, October 28, 2011
Ms. Schmidt. You are a wonderful teacher and person. I agree that are lots of things that go into finding a great teacher. I was in your senior homeroom back in the late 1990s. While you were doing whatever, a few kids were arranging drug deals and even at times selling drugs. Test scores would never show how good of a teacher you were during that period.
Margaret Schmidt
8:12 am on Saturday, October 29, 2011
Well Donny Show, thanks. It doesn't surprise me to hear this (although I thought at least the kids would step out to the men's room around the corner from my classroom to negotiate their deals). It is the elephant in the room in this community. Unfortunately things have not gotten any better since I began my career at SHS in 1995. But let's not pretend that Shorewood is unique in this sense; there are drugs being sold at many schools in this state and country.
The Donny Show
10:26 am on Saturday, October 29, 2011
Ms Schmidt. I am so glad that you can lightly blow it off as not-surprising. Drugs are prevalent. I agree. Drug sales in homeroom should not be prevalent.
In this case, most of the deals would have had to happen in the ladies room.
Gasp-yes girls are probably worse than boys in the Shorewood drug scene.
David Tatarowicz
1:39 pm on Friday, October 28, 2011
I would like to see how our students would do on a test of using quill pens on parchment. Evaluated would be their technique, their understanding of the components of the various inks, and the flow rates of quills from different species of birds.
My point of course is that we can test our students all we want --- and evaluate which teachers get the best results from the students --- but if the CURRICULUM is not germane to the future needs of the students --- and if there are not alternative curricula to meet the different needs of a diverse student population --- high test scores of an irrelevant curriculum is the equivalent of measuring the cabins of the Titanic for new carpeting on its maiden voyage.
CowDung
2:13 pm on Friday, October 28, 2011
If the test scores are from an exam that is common for all schools in the state, wouldn't the performance of the Shorewood students on those tests be an indication of the relevance of the Shorewood curriculum? If what Shorewood is teaching is that far out of line with what is relevant in the 'real' world, I wouldn't expect our students to score very well on the WKCE...
Lyle Ruble
2:32 pm on Friday, October 28, 2011
@CowDung...First of all; who offers the graduation certificate, the state or the district? The only reason that the state cares is for actuarial and audit purposes Before the state and feds provided for school funding they didn't have a say. Now that federal and state dollars flow in, then they have a say.
Knowing the quality of Shorewood Schools, teachers and students, any test the state would come with our students would still rank superior. Look at our kids performance on SAT and ACT exams. The whole north shore is far above average on these exams. I'd just as soon stick to the seniority system and leave it alone. We can still get rid of under performing teachers by not renewing their contracts. A whole lot about nothing.
CowDung
2:46 pm on Friday, October 28, 2011
OK, we as a district will rank superior on any tests they would score us on. I don't think that really matters when it comes to teacher evaluations, and certainly not a reason to continue to keep a straight seniority system. How exactly are underperforming teachers identified and singled out under the seniority system? How does tenure fit into the formula?
CowDung
2:52 pm on Friday, October 28, 2011
I do agree with you that there is a 'whole lot about nothing' going on here. We should be embracing the idea of using test scores as a possible evaluation tool. We should be open to ideas from other districts on how they will be doing teacher evaluations.
I don't want us to be a district that rests on our laurels, thinking that since we have been successful in the past, we will continue to be successful in the future by keeping everything the same.
Margaret Schmidt
8:27 am on Saturday, October 29, 2011
Cowdung - I think we agree on a few points. But your quote: One of the gains achieved by going to an evaluation system is that we can step away from the 'one size fits all' method. The formula used for math teachers doesn't have to be the same as the formula used for art teachers..."
This is precisely why we need to have the flexibility and autonomy to create our own evaluation system, because one size does not fit all, as you say. The evaluation tools that we already have in place do assess a teacher's effectiveness and impact on student growth. We should take the current tools and draft a stronger evaluation tool that would respect both the community's values and the new culture that has been created since January. I just don't think we need to invest our tax dollars in a consortium that does not overall reflect our community. I am not afraid of test scores: Shorewood performs well time and time again on state and national tests. Even though WKCE tests may be flawed, they can be an indicator of growth (or not). But my original point is that our students come to us "as is". We work as teachers with parents (or sometimes not) and students to move them along the continuum of learning and growth. A single test score may or may not be a valid indicator of how I did as a teacher in a given year. It may also be an indicator that something is not going well for the student over which I as a teacher have no control. Let's be realistic about the validity of test scores.
Debra Schwinn
9:30 am on Saturday, October 29, 2011
Well said Margaret. Thank you.
CowDung
8:52 am on Monday, October 31, 2011
Margaret:
I guess I don't see the consortium as something that would 'force' Shorewood to do anything or limit our flexibility at all.
I see it as an opportunity to share ideas--to gain knowledge, and to share knowledge. It's arrogant to think that Shorewood has all the answers and nothing would be gained through discussions with other districts in the consortium.
Yes, a single score might be the result of something beyond the teacher's control--sick student, bad homelife, sleepy student, etc. Do you really think that a teacher is going to get a negative evaluation if one of their students underperforms on a test? I think you are a bit off base if you think that a single student's test score is going to be given more consideration than the scoring average and trends of all the students taught by that teacher.
Margaret Schmidt
11:15 am on Saturday, October 29, 2011
Donny - I'm not blowing it off lightly. Drugs are a problem everywhere. Regular users & dealers become pretty adept at masking their deals. I would LOVE for us to have random locker searches and visits by trained drug dogs. I'm pretty sure that this would cut down and/or eliminate drugs on campus. Why won't the community support that? Are we too afraid of the truth? What would you like me to do when my students enter the room? Pat them down? If the school district/community doesn't take a firm stand on addressing the drug problems, what can I as one teacher do? I've reported kids, sent them to the office, had them removed from my class when I suspected they were under the influence of something. Unless we all agree to address the problem head on, I can only do so much. Bring on the dogs!
(Why do you think I'd be surprised that girls are doing/dealing drugs? I just know that things happen in the men's room, given the location of my classroom.)
Margaret Schmidt
11:27 am on Saturday, October 29, 2011
I also think it's pretty cavalier of you to assume I don't take this problem seriously. Look at the patch police reports. At least 80% of what is reported is about drugs & arrests. This is a societal problem. Drugs RUIN lives. We need to address this problem head on as a community & district. Until enough people decide that we should, I'll focus on what I can do as an individual parent, which is to talk to my kids (and their friends) about how serious this problem is.
Debra Schwinn
1:57 pm on Saturday, October 29, 2011
I think it's safe to say adamantly and firmly that NO teacher at Shorewood High School takes a cavalier attitude about the use of drugs (or alcohol, I might add) by our students either in or out of school. To imply otherwise is to unfairly slander a very dedicated and hardworking group of educators. But I would ask: What has this to do with changing the methods used to evaluate the effectiveness of educators and their delivery of curriculum in the classroom, which is what I thought the point of this article and conversation following was intended to be?
Margaret Schmidt
9:17 pm on Saturday, October 29, 2011
Donny, saying that I "allow drug sales" in my room is frankly libel. There is a big difference between allow something to happen, which implies that one knows what's happening and does nothing to stop it, and being unaware that something is going on, which was certainly the case in my situation. I would certainly never allow any illegal activity to occur in my classroom. Please choose your words wisely.
Debra Schwinn
3:10 pm on Sunday, October 30, 2011
I think the term is "defamation per se" Margaret, because it reflects on your professional integrity, and your job performance. I think you get extra damages for that.
The Donny Show
9:18 am on Monday, October 31, 2011
I deleted the comment. I did not mean to imply that you were part of the actual sales. My point, STILL, is tests are not the only way to evaluate a teacher.
I moved away from Shorewood as my kids got old enough to attend school. The liberal agenda and the drug culture prevalent in the Shorewood Schools was not for me. My choice, I know. Leaving has furthered cemented my belief that Shorewood is just not as desirable as some want to think. I have twice the house, twice the grass, and half the taxes. Seems like a no-brainer now doesnt it?
Carry on.
Debra Schwinn
10:51 am on Monday, October 31, 2011
To each their own. If half the taxes are more important than award winning schools then that is certainly your choice.
Good luck with that.
CowDung
11:18 am on Monday, October 31, 2011
Shorewood isn't the only community that has award winning schools. Mequon, Grafton, Cedarburg, and Brookfield all have great school systems with lower taxes...
The Donny Show
11:22 am on Monday, October 31, 2011
Wow!!!!
Did you not read the whole post? You missed so much.
Liberal agenda? Nope won't discuss that.
Drug culture? Can't talk about that either.
Knowing my kids go to a school that is MUCH better and has won many more awards than Lake Bluff? Sorry, I can't discuss that either.
Half the taxes? HUGE DEAL. I will focus on that.
It is folks like you that make me KNOW that my kids are better off. (Surely your response will focus on this. It is probably libel or defamation per see, right?)
Carry on.
The Donny Show
11:53 am on Monday, October 31, 2011
Right on CowDung. BUT Deb only teaches in Shorewood. In her insulated world, that is all that matters.
Debra Schwinn
10:52 am on Monday, October 31, 2011
And you're here involved in this community conversation because.......? If you've removed yourself from this place how is your input relevant to the conversation?
The Donny Show
11:16 am on Monday, October 31, 2011
I am a SHS grad. Can I not be concerned about my school? I didn't realize I was eliminated from caring. Sorry Deb. Can I email you in the future to make sure I have permission to post?
Debra Schwinn
2:46 pm on Monday, October 31, 2011
Nope, Donny, as far as I'm concerned you are free to post away.
I am going to only wish you well and best of luck. You don't know me, or what my beliefs or political leanings are, what kind of teacher I may or may not be but you're ready to pass judgment nonetheless. Cow Dung will weigh in because that's what he/she/it does, and neither one of you will ever admit that you're talking out of your spleens. That's fine, it's America and we're all entitled to our opinions. It's just that some of us are willing to put our real names on the things we say and others are not. Margaret and I weighed in here to discuss the teacher evaluation issue, and you've both turned it into some sort of character assassination. Liberal agenda? You've never been in my classroom, how would you know "Donny"? My curriculum is in line with the direction of the community elected board and my supervisors. Drug issues? If you think you can move far enough away to find a public/private high school where this isn't an issue you're only fooling yourselves. We fight this battle assiduously every day. I don't need armchair criticism from people who aren't in the fight. Yes there are many award winning schools in Wisconsin, thank god, and hopefully they will all be able to continue to excel in the present environment. And lastly, if you don't like Shorewood, that's fine, but a lot of people do. I hope you find a district that suits you better.
That is all -- YOU may carry on.
CowDung
2:51 pm on Monday, October 31, 2011
Wait one minute here. You refer to me as an "it", and then accuse ME of character assassination? Whose character have I even called into question, much less assassinated?
The Donny Show
5:02 pm on Monday, October 31, 2011
Debra,
I do not know you. You are correct. I know many kids who have taken your Anthro classes in the past and currently. I have read your posts. I know all about your political leanings. Furthermore, you commented you are in line with the direction of the community elected board. That pretty much says you have liberal leanings, right? Or are you not willing to admit that just yet?
I am in a great district that is award winning and suits me much better. My children are learning to be great citiizens and learning the truths about life and not the utopian view of the world (which was my ORIGINAL post in this discussion; feel free to review it. Moreover, feel free to insert it into one of your ANTHRO lessons. I think it would be a great topic. Why did some species do better than others? Why did some die off? Was it because of handouts? NOPE. Those who were strong and able to adapt survived and propsered).
I, like you I assume/hope, have a secondary education degree. I taught for a few years. I left the profession for many reasons. The liberal, utopian nonesense was one of them. I refused to teach to the agenda that the principal pushed. I did not feel like the kids were benefitting from the "poor me I am so beaten down" bologna that we heard in the staff meetings. The ability to support my family was one of them as well. I am proud to say last year (2010) I made 8x what I made as a first year teacher (choice school in MKE).
Carry on.
Debra Schwinn
2:52 pm on Monday, October 31, 2011
Oh and BTW not that it's any of your business but Shorewood is hardly the only place I've ever taught -- people who actually know me would find that "insulated" crack to be pretty laughable.
Debra Schwinn
2:53 pm on Monday, October 31, 2011
Ah Cow Dung, no one knows your true identity. Isn't that the way you want it?
CowDung
3:02 pm on Monday, October 31, 2011
I think it is pretty obvious that "it" would not be an appropriate description for a person. I believe that I have been expressing my opinion in a respectful manner to both you and Margaret over the course of this thread.
If you are the type of person that gets bent out of shape when someone dares to express an opinion that you disagree with, and you feel the need to put them down for participating in a discussion, then I sincerely hope that you are either retired or teaching in another district before my children get to high school.
Debra Schwinn
4:32 pm on Monday, October 31, 2011
You know CD, looking back here I may have confused some of "Donny's" comments for yours. If that's the case I do apologize.
Debra Schwinn
4:35 pm on Monday, October 31, 2011
....and the razzing I was referring to was about the he/she/it crack -- and I WAS only razzing you. You seem to be very sensitive about your secret identity, I was giving you a little poke about it, that's really all that was meant.
CowDung
9:28 am on Tuesday, November 1, 2011
Thank you Debra. I'm glad to hear that your 'character assassination' comment was a case of mistaken identity rather than the baseless attack that I thought it to be.
The Donny Show
9:34 am on Tuesday, November 1, 2011
I am not so happy about it though! LOL
Debra Schwinn
3:29 pm on Monday, October 31, 2011
Wow, can't take a little gentle razzing? Sorry, then. Thought you had more of a sense of humor than that. AS for what kind of person I am how could you possibly know? It's just that kind of assumptive leap to judgment that best exhibits your charm.
I'd have more respect for what you have to say if you didn't hide behind an assumed screenname. I know I post in some places where I face some pretty scathing opposition but I never use an assumed identity. If I didn't have the courage of my convictions enough to speak with my own identity I would just stay off of comment threads like this one. But that's just me.
As for retiring or moving to another district, I would frankly welcome the chance to sit down across a table with you and discuss your child(ren)'s progress. I'm sure they are nice kids who work hard and do well at school, and I'm sure we could do some good work together in the classroom.
CowDung
3:31 pm on Monday, October 31, 2011
Stating that I was engaging in 'character assassination' is 'gentle razzing'?
CowDung
3:48 pm on Monday, October 31, 2011
My children have quite a few years before they will be entering HS. I'll stick with sitting across the table from the various teachers at Atwater for now...
If scathing posts on an internet site were all I had to fear, I wouldn't bother with the 'nom de plume'. I am doing my best to avoid any bias against my kids (unintentional or intentional) based on my political leanings and the opinions that I express on this site. As it is, you have labeled me as a 'character assassin', for no apparent reason other than my participation in this discussion and my refusal to use my real name on this site.
I would hope that your negative opinion of me wouldn't carry over to the classroom or to my children, but considering how quickly you seemed to have judged me, I am not willing to take that chance.
CowDung
3:54 pm on Monday, October 31, 2011
...and as far as determining what kind of person you are, your accusation against me and your attempt to pass it off as 'gentle razzing' seems to paint a pretty clear picture of the kind of person that you are.
concerned
3:58 pm on Monday, October 31, 2011
The evaluation system should include heavy input from parents and teachers. Everyone knows who the bad teachers are. If you ask 100 people the same names come up over and over again. We take years looking to rehabilitate them when they should be moved out. Our kids should not be asked to wait. They have one high school experience and one chance to learn. Why do we sacrifice the good of the many for the needs of a few? The vast majority of the teachers in Shorewood are amazing however the bad apples need to be moved out.