@Bob.. How do we address the lack of contribution to road & bridge funding by alternate or hybrid fuel vehicles?

we don't need to keep up with the Joneses when it comes to taxes.
Let Illinois lead in every category of poorer quality of life statistics

That's a good point Jay. Maybe restrict the mileage related registration fees to the alternative fuel (read that at this point, electric) vehicles. Most of the hybrids at this point aren't getting mileage all that much greater than the small high mileage gas-only powered vehicles. I'm not convinced that if you pulled out all the other unrelated stuff we fund using the gas tax that we would really need anything beyond a gas tax for gas-only vehicles and, perhaps, the registration accommodation (or some other option) for the electric ones. We might even find we don't need an increase at all. I also don't think we, on a national level, should be subsidizing the purchase of electric vehicles (if we still are).

@Bob McBride -- I fail to see why Wisconsin should come into line with Illinois and Indiana, when we're more like Minnesota in terms of population and climate. Winter takes a heckuva toll on the roads, but if Minnesota can handle it, so should we.

As for registration based on mileage -- that's a record-keeping nightmare for all of us. Bad, bad idea.

How the WI per-mile fee would work:

All registrants would pay $75. In addition, those driving between 3,000 and 20,000 miles would be charged 1.02 cents a mile for a maximum $248.40 total fee. Miles above 20,000 would not incur a fee. Owners could either report actual odometer readings or pay the maximum $248.40 fee.

Randy, if we're going to do the repairs we should pay for them using funds taken from users. I'd prefer we look into the things currently being paid for by the gas tax that really bear no direct relationship to motor vehicle transportation and eliminate any gas tax funding to those items prior to any increase.

In addition, if you note, I've highlighted information from the linked article referencing this increase, along with the mileage penalty and higher registration for truckers being used to fund bike, air travel, freight rail, harbor and pedestrian "needs". If we eliminated those, along with eliminating the usage of current gas tax rates for unrelated "needs", we might actually see a decrease in the gas tax.

The simplistic question posed by the article was whether one prefers the gas tax over using a "projected" windfall to fund highway infrastructure projects. Given those two choices, I think the gas tax makes more sense.

As for the mileage thing for non-gas using vehicles, it is a can of worms. Any program that relies on self-reporting without verification is going to be subject to abuse and verification could be burdensome. But I also don't think those using electric vehicles should skate on paying for road maintenance. I don't think it's possible to effectively (read that, affordably) tax specifically the electric power used to charge those vehicles. Then again, they're not common at all at this point in time. So there's time to think that one through.

Bob, I'm merely asking how Minnesota manages its own roadwork on a lower gasoline tax. I don't have much of a choice -- we drive as little as possible already.

As far as pedestrian improvements, any time you widen a road (as has happened with Bluemound Road several times in the past few decades) you make life much more difficult and dangerous for pedestrians in the area. I have to say, I was very grateful for the improved crosswalks and slightly more pedestrian-friendly options with the stoplights at the major intersections. Mostly, I 'need' not to get run down by a motorist who doesn't expect to have pedestrians in that area.

Randy, I suppose you could research MN's gas tax and look for something like Jay found about ours relating to what percentage of the tax is diverted for other purposes. That may have something to do with it. Or maybe it works the other way there. As for what the "pedestrian" portion of the tax is intended to be used for, that isn't specifically referenced. Nor are any of the other non-roadway related items mentioned in the linked article. I can say I don't want my gas taxes going to upgrade pedestrian traffic ways in communities that have elected to provide substandard versions of the same, nor do I want to use them to "pave the Bug Line" so that bikers don't have to navigate a cinder bike trail. I certainly don't want them used for upgrading rail crossings or anything harbor related. Let the users of all those forms of transportation figure out a way to get more transparent, user specific funding for their "needs". The less of this tax commingling that goes on, the better.

Stop scheming about my electric car!

My wife is from MN., so gives a little insight. According to her, not all roads in Minnesota are paved. Smaller country roads are just gravel and tar, and sometimes just gravel, so their infrastucture costs are lower. Now, if that's a reflection on customer (taxpayers) demands between the states, or our road building lobby is so much stronger, I'm not sure. I think you will find the same thing in Iowa...not all roads are paved like they are in WI.

The government always finds a way, Luke. They may f up just about everything else, but they're idiot savants when it comes to finding ways to squeeze your pocketbook.

What are "General Fund" type programs/expenses doing intermingled in a named targeted and 'theoretically dedicated' tax funding source?

Lets get all these other 'items' deleted out of the gas/diesel tax. Move them to the "General Fund" or create a specific tax/funding source;lets see exactly what funding we have available, after we clear away all the years of accumulated political subterfuge.

That sounds like a plan to me. It would be interesting to see the numbers on that at least so we can form an opinion on this issue. Maybe a Patch journalist could do some number crunching for us and show what expenses are currently being covered by revenue from gas taxes and registration fees. If no one at the Patch wants to do this, maybe a reader could post this info?

Spent about 10 minutes here trying to find something and came up with nothing on the breakdown/apportionment.

http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/about/tfp/docs/mtg8-issue-fund.pdf

Based on the information on Appendix A we can be certain that 37.4% of the funds are being spent correctly, as one would expect from a dedicated/segregated gas tax;you know, on roads and bridges. (I'm sure it is much more, but this appendix does not break it out very well)

Also look at table 1 for sources of revenue:
Motor Vehicle Fuel Taxes 57.01%
Vehicle Registration Fees 35.64%

Tollways probably represent the most direct approach to recovering the cost of maintaining highway infrastructure from those who use them. As long as the fee structure wasn't used as yet another way to soak drivers in order to support other, non-related or alternative method transportation projects.

Chicago is to the East? That dump must just be Milwaukee.

@Nuitari -- No, Chicago is not to the east of Milwaukee, but if you're heading anywhere east you pretty much have to go through it or around it. The east/west thing also accounts for some confusion when you're leaving Chicago for Wisconsin, and the on-ramps read either "I-94 East" of "I-94 West." You have to have the smarts to realize that I-94 heads west out of Milwaukee and thence on to the Twin Cities.

Dems tell it like it is????? Really???

Vicki:

Considering that Walker stated that he opposes new taxes, and has stated that he also opposes this new tax, I'm not sure why you think that they figure they can have it both ways...

"Heil Hitler!" I see the Nazi party is representing here. "Bloated minority construction contractors"? 'Minority' is code-lingo for 'Darkies'. Mr. Hess here thinks that 'Darkies' are not Americans and should have to compete for business in a system where Aryans like him are deciding who gets the contract. Can you guess how the outcome would go without affirmative action initiatives? I wonder if this guy also thinks that the local jails should lease out the disproportionate amount of 'Darkies' there to white-owned construction firms? That'd sure teach those bloated minorities who is in charge and stop them from being bloated. People like this want to end 'minority construction contractor bloat' through 'minority construction contractor starvation'. I wonder if he'd buy the barbed wire for his concentration camp from minority barbed wire salesmen?

Anyone who has ever been around a person like this Ray Ray Johnson quickly learns about their temper. These people can be pleasant and smiling one minute but if they perceive a slight disrespect, their anger is obvious. My friends say I should have compassion for people like Ray Ray Johnson. I'm sorry folks, but I just can't have compassion for people who hate me and demand the same freedoms and rights for themselves that they are taking away from me.

It was the use of the German flag as your avatar, combined with your contempt for the minority, (melanin-advantaged?) races getting assistance in reducing the possibility for discrimination from the table with minority contractor support provisions in the bidding process. We all know what whitey means when he uses the word 'minority' in that context. So, yeah, you sound like a Nazi when you express contempt against a less-than homogenous contractor population getting protective assistance against ignorant, undertravelled, uneducated, less-than-worldly white folk who would certainly band together to blackball minority contractors from competing in the standard 'good ol' boy' newtork that appears to still be breathing in 2013.

Ray Ray Johnson…What you’re expressing is blatant racism. The fact that one group of people has a better chance at an infrastructure development contract because of their skin color is racist. Every time a minority contract quota is granted by a state or federal agency the result is hundreds and hundreds of innocent white construction worker victims. Minority only contracts do not end discrimination. They are discrimination. The law is crystal clear that race, ethnicity and sex are not to be part of who gets a government contract or who gets into a university or where someone goes to school.

Government partners with the markets to form a more perfect Union, establlish justice, ensure domestic tranqility, promote the general welfare (that is to say well-being), and ensure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity. Provisions that allow for non-white owned businesses to have a voice at the table do all these things. You yourself admit that your ire is race-based--that whites are in competition with non-whites, insinuating whereas that without the protections, whites would not be in competition with non-whites. To that, you'd be correct; a white-owned establishment would conspire to monopolize the system, as history has taught us. Maybe you think I should pick up my dinner from the back door of the restaurant so you don't have to look at me. Maybe you'd like to ship me back to Africa. I should tell you that I've never been there. I did read that many Nazis settled in Argentina. You should go and re-connect with your bretheren. I may have brown skin, but at least I ain't a Brown Shirt.

Gov. Walker borrowed $500 million which will cost us an additional $150 million in interest over the next 20 years. There's the $17 million he cost the state because he inspired the recall. How much is being spent on the John Doe investigation? He left Milwaukee County with a $55 million deficit. And this is only halfway through one term. From where I'm standing, Doyle was a bargain.

Over $2 Billion saved at a cost of $17 million, due to a union tantrum, sounds like a great deal. Bren, there is a difference between borrowing and refinancing.

Nice try Bren. Who is to blame for the assault on the Capitol, an unnecessary recall. And as far as the John Doe investigation that Walker asked for because he did the responsible thing when he found malfeasance in his office. And again Bren, the $55 million deficit is because of Democrat Tom Ament's corruption with the county pension.

You really are not doing your homework...

I don't know if Bren is totally clueless, or a liar:
"Gov. Walker borrowed $500 million which will cost us an additional $150 million in interest over the next 20 years."
Again Bren, he REFINANCED $500 million. $558 million was scheduled to be payed off by 2012, but thanks to Diamond Jim Doyle's policies, WE DIDN'T HAVE THE MONEY!!! What did you want him to do, take another $500 million from the schools?

"There's the $17 million he cost the state because he inspired the recall."
Sorry Bren, the hissy-fit throwing Blue Fisters inspired the recall. As the final outcome proved, the MAJORITY of Wisconsin voters did not want a change in leadership!!!

"How much is being spent on the John Doe investigation?"
Great question Bren. Why don't you ask John Chisholm that one? It's his office that keeps turning over rocks and finding nothing.
BTW-isn't this the same John Doe investigation that was started when Scott Walker called the DA's office to report some accounting improprieties?

"He left Milwaukee County with a $55 million deficit."
Scott Walker left the county in much better financial shape then when he took over. Funny, you are able to give B.O. a pass for tripling the Federal Deficit, yet attack Scott Walker for doing an outstanding job of reigning in county finances WITHOUT RAISING TAXES!!!

Time to smell the coffee Bren. Governor Walker has done a great job running the state. Maybe you should look where the real problem lies... in Washington!!!

greg
Tammy Baldwin will more impotent than Kohl. That said, wasting tax money is wasting tax money be it at the state or federal level.

If the funding doesn't get turned away again by a governor whose inability to read/understand a contract is well demonstrated.

Bren-Even Dane County refused to help fund the choo-choo train in a referendum with 72% saying no to additional taxes to fund it. I guess the governor had a better read on reality than a contract that would only help build it, not run it.

Why not tax those from out of state who use our transportation - When you rent a car in Florida they tax you to death. What about hotel tax for out of state visitors?

How much freight was that train going to carry? The ongoing costs of the train would have meant less money for our highways.

Bren it would be cheaper and quicker on "(a first leg in connecting Madison to the Twin Cities)" to go directly from Madison to the Twin Cities;riding the rails back and forth between Madison and Milwaukee, before traveling to your end destination of the Twin Cities, just wastes 3 hours;the bus doesn't do that, it goes direct!

It would be cheaper to never even research or think about a stupid communter rail line that we cannot afford. Madison-Milwaukee-Minneapolis is not New York-Baltimore-Washington DC. There simply si not enough ridership to support even the operation of such a ridiculous idea. Bren, that is why the highly intellectual, far superior to minds like yours, scrapped it inthe first place.

Bren, I do agree that there is a problem with very little improvements over the years in road construction materials. I think the construction companies don't want to shoot themselves in the foot by providing pavement that would need very little maintenance and last 100 years. The gov't (their customer) has not demanded a better product, so they they haven't provided it. If roads lasted 150 years, there would soon be a lot of folks out of work all over the country.

Having said that, I certainly don't claim to have detailed knowledge of the road construction industry. This is just my personal observation over the years.

Bren
11:34 am on Sunday, January 27, 2013

Issues concerning highways include: the users that cause the most damage (large trucks) are often from out-of-state. 2. Materials used in road construction need to be improved. Since R&D costs money, we don't advance.

1) "Large trucks from out-of-state" are paying a large amount of the cost through on-road diesel taxes. Even if they don't buy the fuel in WI, they are required to report it's use in the state, and subsequently pay the excise tax to WI.

2) There are actually HUGE tech,. advances coming to fruition currently, and even being used in a few projects within the state. The new re-emulsifying/recycling approach may not last longer, but it does generally cost 25-30% of a total regrind/replace overlay approach, saving huge amounts of money. As for the rest, I'm not sure what you're suggestion would be to "re-invent the wheel", but apparently, you've got a list of educated approaches............

Joe, I'm glad to hear that there are advances being made. I have to admit that road construction is not one of the areas I read about and "keep tabs on." It's rarely mentioned in the media unless it's information on roads being closed. Maybe a journalist from the Patch would take the time to speak with some people from this industry and write a piece on improvements and cost saving measures made over the past 50 years. Since Mr. Schroeder found the gas tax an interesting and relevant topic, he could help to educate his readers so we can make a better informed opinion.

I certainly don't have any technological improvement ideas, but, as a customer, I am interested in seeing what improvements are being made and what options are out there.

First of all, we don't all pay the same registration. Trucks and SUVs pay more because of the weight. As for the worth of the car, how would you compute a fair tax on my 19 year old Grand Cherokee, which was bought used for very little money and is driven as little as possible? Technically, it's a 'luxury' vehicle, so do you want to stick it to me because I need a vehicle that hauls cargo and can handle snow?

I own over a dozen vehicles, but only drive one at a time. Why should I have to pay more?

I'd pay good money to watch you drive two at a time, Greg. I've always figured that we ought to insure drivers rather than vehicles on the same principle -- at least as it applies to liability insurance.

Greg -

I suspect a) because it is the law b) because you are stupid enough to own over a dozen vehicles...

John,
My comments were associated with the original post in this string, the sooner you figure that out, the sooner you can sit at the big kids table.

Cause it's the law, DUHHHHHH!

You were told that the Titanic is in great shape? I figured you were that dense.
It sank, go see the movie.

Its not the politicians in this case, it is state agencies making these recommendations. They have been so spoiled by past administrations that they always defer to tax and fee hikes rather than try to figure out a bettr way of using the resources they have.

What politicians proposed a tax hike?

Brian Dey -

IF it is "borrowed" money it is still money that has to be repaid.

Perhaps Gov. Walker can use his smoke and mirrors to make it go away and claim we have a balanced budget... golly, 250,000 new jobs too!

Are we forgetting Scott McCollum sold our tobaco settelemt to balance his budget and still left Doyal with a deficit ?

And John Wilson, the money Doyle raided from the medical malpractice fund, Doyle was court ordered to pay it back in 2010. He didn't, so again Walker had to clean up yet another Democrat mess.. Let's see, along with balancing the budget, erasing a $3.8 billion deficit. Oh, and having at last count, $ 486 million surplus. Not bad for a guy without a degree.

Finally, someone is talking a little common sense. These proposals have the fingerprints of the road builders lobby all over them. Time to assess our real "needs" and fund them and not spend money on the "wants" of local politicians and powerful industry lobbying groups.

If you are traveling from Chicago area to the wonderfu N. Wisc. or U.P., of course you would spend a couple dollars on tolls. What choice do you have as a driver to escape to the unique and otherwise unobtainable, except by bus or airplane, North Woods of Wisconsin and the U.P,.? You could drive through Lower Mich., but what a big long trip, and through Chicago. itself with tolls. Then to get to U.P., you have to go over the Mackinac Bridge, and that is a big toll. to get back to the Central U.P. and N. Wisc., you have to endure.U.S. 2 West for what seems like an eternity.

Tansandy,
Please don't assume that I'm trying to push any sort of agenda for a political party. I'm not. I've just looked around over the past 30+ years and watched how innovations in many areas of the economy and our lives have made amazing improvements in how we live. One of the areas that hasn't appeared to evolve has been road construction. We still have to break up old roads and lay down new ones frequently. I still drive over ones that have to be cut every few feet to allow for movement during the winter.The most popular way to fix potholes is still to dump a tar mix in and move on.

As I said, I am only looking at this from an "outsiders" perspective. I appreciate the information you gave and I am interested in hearing more. The points you made are good, but can you please elaborate on other ways the industry as evolved to make roads last longer and cost less to put down and maintain?

Outlaw roundabouts.

So what do you think we should do about projects like the Zoo Interchange? According to attached study/proposal, we should probably build some bike paths, improve pedestrian walkways, do some stuff with our harbors and railways with the increases being requested as well. Does that portion of it sound like the road builder's lobby to you?

Barney Ruble- How do you feel about municipal unions that gather at the other government teat to gouge the state for more tax dollars for those state employees? And your outrage is............... Oops forgot, only selective outrage!

We need to find a way for bicycle riders to contribute to the construction of bike-specific infrastructure -- not painted bike lanes on roads, but dedicated bike paths.

Yearly bicycle registration fee. Doesn't have to be a lot. Require that a tag be displayed. I bike and I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Hakk,
Do you grow your own food, make your own clothes or build your own bike? Sorry to tell you, you'll pay the gas/fuel tax too.

More gas tax makes more profit for gas station. Minimum markup law good.

While you're thinking about it consider this:

Gasoline taxes only pay for 30.7% of road spending in Wisconsin.

http://taxfoundation.org/article/gasoline-taxes-and-tolls-pay-only-third-state-local-road-spending

That is correct.

Patriot –

The real issue is twofold at least a) people like YOU keep voting for the same people to be put in congress and (state office) and they keep doing the same things – YOU, as in WE THE PEOPLE – know that we have the POWER OF THE VOTE to change things b) your strange addiction to ideology and actually bizarre comment about BIG GOVERNMENT being the proximate cause of all this entitlement, taxes and interference is, well, just stupid, if not entirely meaningless.

When the Constitution was written, we had a miniscule 13 colonies and 3 Million people. We now have 50 states and over 311 Million people; of course, having the same size of government as we had in 1789 makes all the sense in the world to YOU!

The size of the government here is largely unimportant; the federal/state government should actually grow or contract based upon what WE THE PEOPLE vote for it to do, and further, we should insist that it be efficient, honest and accountable to WE THE PEOPLE. Both federal & state governments have become nothing more than slaves to huge multi-national corporations, Wall Street, and the Billionaires who have the money to buy them, so they create a largely unequal environment, favorable for BUSINESS, while WE THE PEOPLE get to stand by and pay for it and watch.

IF all YOU do is spout your inane ideology, YOU are the PROBLEM and certainly not any part of the SOLUTION…

Patriot –

Now that is a real oxymoron of a screen name for you...

YOU vote a straight TP/GOP Ticket.

“Second of all the current Obama admin has grown the federal government by leaps and bounds since in office. More regulations than ever before!! So give me a break!!"

How much is a “leap” is that 1%, 5%, or 10% what metric are we talking about here?

Similarly, how much is a “bound” 1%, 5%, 10% what metric are we using here?

I suspect some numbers or percentages would be helpful here.

Furthermore, when you inherit an economy that is the brink of a depression – losing 750,000 jobs per month – unemployment at 9,7%, I would expect that you just might have to bring people in – that would mean hire – to address the catastrophe. That is largely why we have now had 35 months of consecutive job growth…

Regarding regulations, I have to assume you are talking about the bail out of Wall Street, Fannie & Freddie, the automotive industry, and the Dodd-Frank regulations that have NOT gone into effect yet, but will prevent Wall Street, banks and other financial entities and the other “Job Creators” from destroying our economy again and raping the consumers with impunity.

We could probably take all the regulations, prosecutors, law enforcement and the FBI off the Mafia too, and that would leave America in great shape.

Just what is it that YOU want me to “break”?

John Wilson wrote: "Regarding regulations, I have to assume you are talking about the bail out of Wall Street, Fannie & Freddie, the automotive industry, and the Dodd-Frank regulations that have NOT gone into effect yet, but will prevent Wall Street, banks and other financial entities and the other “Job Creators” from destroying our economy again and raping the consumers with impunity...."

Those regulations will also prevent the job creators from helping the economy move along by hiring new employees. Yes, there are some business that take advantage and use unfair business practices, but we need to punish those entities, not all of them.

And what exactly was it that destroyed the economy John? The lack of oversight of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. Democratic legislators fought tooth and nail to let Freddie and Fannie continue on their disastrous path.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMnSp4qEXNM