Craig...this is not over...believe me...the fight goes on..what is your ocupation anyway??? you don't have to worry about workers rigjhts or cuts in pay ..do you???.. to help fill the pockets of the KOCH brothers and their cronies.. The working class whom help you big wigs line your jeans with $$$$$ is over. Its recall time buddy and soon the workers will be back in control!!!!! The tent city is our solidarity and stand of which we have right in this free nation to express our views. So get a grip!!! Give some more tax breaks to your cronies !!! OH.. Its not about the budget!!!Ha Ha!!

As much as you hate to admit it , the homeless are still american citizens, and this is still a free country.

It's not over by a long shot. Republicans want to dismantle Medicare and replace it with Vouchercare. They want to dismantle and privatize public education.

Damned right this isn't over, especially after reading this -- http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/123954774.html?page=1

Any one with a sense of justice will have no choice but to recall Darling.

No, the unions will sue, because it's all about the forced union dues for them. Lefties dont want a quality alternative, they only survive when you force people by the hand of government to do things. It, in the end, is never about education, but the free benefits and continuing to overpay for these workers. The only reason why the backlash is so bad, is because they've simply had it so good for all these years, and never appreciated it.

@Jack We all know you guys to great work. It was more of a sin to pay you at a rate that was never sustainable. This is why you only pay what you can afford, because if you just give away the store, borrow, and spend...this is the ultimate end. If the union thugs get back in control, you'll be facing the ultimate judgement day just like California is, as with all these other states that overpromised.

What do you expect when Republicans steal elections with 7500 phoney votes!

Thurston, those 7500 votes that you would have not counted? Guess that's the way you get your side, disenfranchising whole cities and communities

And suddenly finding 7,500 votes by not pressing "save" on a database that doesn't require you to press "save" by a County Clerk who used to work for one of the candidates and sat on her discrepancy for 29 hours before disclosing it sure sounds suspicious. A proven untrustworthy person was able to put the peoples' votes on her own personal computer and do whatever she pleases with them. If the Dems had pulled that, you would be screaming bloody murder and you know it. I'm sure when Shelly Moore starts getting more votes than Sheila Harsdorf, the GOP will create a situation where more votes are "found" for Sheila.

@Shannon As a former resident of Waukesha County, their system is different than any other system in the county, and it was a clerk who was refusing to change. The only crime is that it was't reported fast enough, which gave us this debate. We would be well rid of her and Waukesha County needs to get with the 21st century.

Amen Bill, let's get rid of the Clerk. You have to admit though - it sure was a convenient mishap, wasn't it? Maybe Waukesha County's system is different for a reason . . .

You and I both know TH3 will comment... Im thinking th over under will be 18 comments... LOL

Actually, hope they do comment...need more, then have your kids and everyone come see who they are, and why we need to keep the Budget repair bill. Each hate-filled drivel from their posts is arguement more towards going further. Perhaps layoffs on top of it.

Ah Dan BV, but our "rights" aren't profitable to the big corporations.

To paraphrase the white Anglo-Saxon Supply Side Jesus that they worship - "Do unto others BEFORE they do unto you."

How many of the public sector union workers affected by the budget repair bill are employed by 'big corporations' looking to increase their profits?

OMG GOP.

I'm sure if you have your way they will be "Reconstructing" the WI Constitution to hit your interpretation, and stacking all the courts with Prosser clones.

Well, this will be the end game, prosser-cutter. This bill does not strip the unions of the power, it merely makes them accountable to their members. No longer will the union elite (which aren't exactly poor by any means) be able to force union members to pay into their system. The only reason there is outrage on the Democrats, is because this money laundering operation is threatened (using public funds to give to government officials, so they can negotiate from both sides of the table).

"Amen" from a moderate/liberal.

I don't know about everyone else, but I'm going to jump through all the hoops required to get my 'approved' ID and vote every chance I get.

Watching Walker and the Fitzgeralds behave like a runaway horse with the bit in its teeth has cured me of ever thinking, "Well, we've had a Republican Governor before, it con't be too bad this time."

The court decision yesterday was predictable, as are the comments here with their juvenile cracks about the homeless and port-a-potties.

I just want to add that I haven't seen a whole lot of compromise from the Republican side in this process.

Were there any compromises from the Democrat side?

Cow, I think I Democratic compromise would go something like this:

"In exchange for the the Republicans not asking public employees to contribute more to their benefits package while leaving collective bargaining privileges alone, we Democrats are willing to accept a pay raise and more paid time-off for these same folks."

In fact, CowDung, the unions did come back with compromises.
The Democrats really didn't have an opportunity to compromise, seeing as Walker and Company put the bill out with a "ram this through" approach that truly had no discussion; a "Get this passed, I'll sign it Friday" directive. You can't compromise when there's no opportunity to negotiate.
And I believe Mr. Walker stayed on record as not willing to compromise anyway.
So the point in ansking "Were there any compromises from the Democrat side?" is what?

The BRB was released by Walker on 2/11.
The Joint Finance Committee meets to debate and take public comment on bill on 2/14-15.
The Dem Senators left the state on 2/17.
The BRB passes the Assembly on 2/25.

Where exactly was the 'ramming'?

As a point of comparison, Doyle's budget repair bill WAS rammed through in less than 24 hours, without public hearings back in 2009.

Oh Brother. You know and I know that had the Dems not fled to halt the march to conclusion and Madison not become enveloped in protestors, that it would have been a done deal in by 2/22 or there abouts, with no actual debate and no negotiation. Walker himself chucklingly called the union busting portions a "bomb" planted in the bill. 7 days to force in place significant change in employment/labor rights?
Township boards spend more time deciding whether lilacs or arborvatae should be planted in the park - and treat the issue with more respect, too.

How exactly do 'you and I know' that?

Even having a deal done by 2/22 is 11 days after the bill was released by Walker. They had two days in committee for public comment. What's so unreasonable about the timeframe?

The fact of the matter is that you just don't like the bill, so you are trying to fabricate some 'Walker's fault' type reasons to oppose it.

Geez. You count weekend days?
Yes, I don't like the bill. No, I am not fabricating reasons to dislike Walker's MO. Those are supplied in abundance.

Yeah--like the charge that it was 'rammed through without public input'...

Somehow, I doubt that you wanted to recall Doyle for ramming his budget repair bill through in 1 day, without public input...

Sorry folks, but there is no reason for compromise. When the electorate has given you a super majority you run with it.

There were no Democrat compromises. They only compromise when it's the 11th hour. They talk about not ramming it through without public input, the Budget Repair bill was debated for months, everyone knew, and every protester was in the capital and on the lawn (from California and New York, etc.) but that's what they do in your local communities, ramming it through and negotiating behind closed doors in secret.
Lefties hate it when they get some of their own medicine. They can dish it out, but they cant take it.

It's all well and good to resent unions, particularly with the experiences you've cited. But what's happened in Madison these past several months is a lot less about unions than it is about decent governing by genuinely democratic principles. That's what's taken a hit here, and we'll all suffer, union or not. When parties change hands in Madison, and they will, we have a new, very low, standard the next regime will feel free to follow. The system I'm hoping to defend is better government than we've been getting. The process of trashing our democracy that's been followed is a lot more bitter than the product of busting public workers' unions. A lot.

What's happened in Madison these last few months is a danger to democracy? Really? Was it a danger to democracy when Doyle cut that sweet heart deal with the Indian casinos? Or raided the doctor's malpractice fund? Doyle's administration is the most corrupt in recent memory.

What this is about is there are too many people sitting in the cart and too few pulling. Now we're asking those sitting in the cart that if they are able they should get out and help pull. It's about responsibility....if you can't afford kids don't keep popping them out and asking the government to pay for them....if you are retiring now, look it, you lived through the greatest economic boom in history, if you didn't take care of your retirement and blew it all on your toys, homes and eating out then don't ask me now to pay for your retirement....

This shift has little to do with Republicans and Democrats, it's Gen X coming into power now. We have much more in common with our grandparent's generation than our parent's. I don't think you will like what's coming down the pipe boomers. What's happening in Madison now is a small taste.

If you are against abortion and birth control and in favor of abstinence training, guess what - there will be more children born to parents who don't have the means to care for them. If you don't want to fund the welfare, Medicaid and other social programs that provide help to those babies who aren't aborted, get to your local Childrens' Services and adopt one of those kids whose mother "chose life" and give them the life you so vehemently argue for.

@235301 -- that's all we need, is age warfare in addition to the class warfare. Actually, if you're a Gen X-er, when I was pulling the cart I was paying for your parents' and grandparents' retirement, and you weren't complaining then, so why the sudden attitude?

@235301...Are you saying that Boomers must fear their own children who are Gen-X? I don't understand your point.

This isn't ageism or age warfare...and you have nothing to fear from your GenX children. GenX knows the bill is coming due for all these entitlement programs and there won't be enough money to go around. We already know SS will be gone by the time our retirement rolls around. And it will be in shambles for the boomers. The boomers can only count on SS being a small portion of their retirement. It's time to start the reduction in the entitlement programs of the government(today we spend 60% of budget vs 35% in 1965). That spending is outrageous and we have to start getting this under control. The pain we're seeing in Madison is just a preview of things to come.

@235301..If it isn't ageism or age warfare, what is it? Boomers stepped up to the plate and supported your grandparents and great grandparents. The Social Security issue is easily fixable and it will be there when you reach retirement age. Medicaid and Medicare is not as easily fixed until we get double digit healthcare costs under control. The easiest answer is to nationalize healthcare. Money is there you just have to stop funding a military that was designed to fight a war with the former Soviet Union. We can't afford to be the world's policeman any longer.

Lyle: Don't equate your parent's burden with ours, I'll quote a recent MSNBC article:

“Ever since we Gen-X/Yers began working, we've paid 12.4 percent of our earnings to Social Security,” he wrote. “In contrast, the Boomers will get a bargain. When they entered the workforce in the late 1960s, they paid only 6.5 percent of their earnings to Social Security. Only from 1990 on, when the Boomers had earned paychecks for a quarter-century, did they start paying 12.4 percent to Social Security, the same percentage we Gen-X/Yers have paid our whole lives.”

That’s why Firey dubbed it The Boomers’ Bargain: “They've paid less of their earnings into Social Security than we Gen-X/Yers, yet they'll receive more in benefits than we will and we'll pick up the tab.”

Defense spending is only 20% of our budget. Contrast that to the 60% for entitlements. We would get much better bang for our buck cutting entitlements. Sorry to be so practical.

@235301...It's all a question of numbers. Boomers represent a bulge in the population. When boomers were paying in there were enough to meet the preceived needs at 6.5%, but that was at a moderate rate of inflation. When the system was again addressed in the 1980s the contribution was increased to all workers to accomodate the known increases that were coming when boomers started retiring. However, that proved not to be enough and further adjustments must be made. Now the question for you is are you going to step up and do what's necessary to honor the committment?

Lyle: the commitment is you will not go hungry. You will have basic medical care. You will not be funded at a level that allows you to maintain your current lifestyle. If you want to live at that level in retirement then you had better be putting away money to fund that lifestyle. Expecting the taxpayers to fund anything more than basic necessities in your retirement is offensive and quite frankly not realistic. Let me paint you a picture of the future: We are already seeing self insured companies encouraging employees to have major surgeries performed in India. We will see this strategy surely applied to those living on the government dollar. Heed this warning: if you do not save enough for retirement then you are putting your fate in the hands of others. We are already offshoring a whole host of services today. That is migrating into healthcare. Why shouldn't it also migrate into long term geriatric care and other long term care? I will not trust my fate to others and save now for my retirement rather than buying toys and going out to eat and spending my money foolishly. I will not saddle my children and grandchildren with the results of my poor choices.

@235301...Since I am already retired I guess that by your scenerio I should just be thrown out as a non productive member of society. I didn't waste my money on foolishness such as buying toys, going out to eat, etc. I lost a fortune when the stock market bubble burst three years ago. I had no control over that since it was invested in a 401(k). Now I am to depend on people like yourself who don't give a damn about anyone except yourself. You answered my basic question that you will fail to step up and put a stop to all of this mess. Only until the social injustices are rectified and people rise up to stop the abuses committed in the name of greed will this madness end. If you really want to protect your children and grandchildren then you will step up and change the corrupted system.

You have complete control over your 401. You have no control over the market. If you just sat idely by while your 401 tanked, that was your decision to do that. Those that actively monitor their retirement investments have lots of options. Poor decisions by you or anyone else does not mean I should bail you out - banks included.

@mainstreet...Don't assume the 401(k) wasn't managed. But the market's ups and downs are leveled out over the long run. However, sometimes retirement is forced on you and you don't have the time to recover. What SSI is to cover was never designed to be the whole. But, there were a lot of people caught in the same dilemma I found myself in. I sincerely hope you never find yourself in similar circumstances. No matter how well you plan, sh.. happens.

Considering that 'most of us' aren't union members, I don't see how this legislation is going to drop most of us from middle class to poverty. I don't see how it's going to drop anyone into poverty for that matter...

Funny how you post an article like that and complain about spin and the difficulty involved in finding the facts.

@CowDung...I can see that you haven't changed; it's still all about you. When something bad happens to you or yours, should we just ignore your need because it doesn't directly impact us.

The claim was made that "it is going to drop most of us from the middle class to poverty levels and it will not stimulate jobs in WI".

It's not so much that 'it's all about me', I just saw that as a baseless and ridiculous claim.

The republicans inherited a $6 Billion shortfall. In 6 months, assuming the repair bill and budget bill are passed, Wisconsin will have a $300 million surplus. Lets run on that. The democrats could argue to go back to the good ole days of borrowing, runaway spending, and inevitable tax increases and excessive regulation and random rules.

Do you repost this same comment every hour or something?

@CowDung, thats how they operate. Probably in some building, and they have their talking points. Perfect candidate for them is Anthony Weiner, he could spit out talking points like nothing. Nothing you say will change their opinion. But keep pressing, the more they respond, the more they are exposed.

Happy: This post isn't just on Hudson Patch; it's on most Patch sites across Wisconsin.

If the Court says Walker can do what he wants in spite of the Open Meeting Law violations, what is the point of laws if you can just do what you want anyway? So, I guess it's more of an Open Meetings SUGGESTION. but only if you are a Republican.

I'm hoping that the GOPs tactics will start turning away moderates; however, I'm thinking that by the next election moderates won't be allowed to vote.

It was a special session, under the rules of the Senate. But if you want to argue about open meetings law, why can't you guys play by the same rules with contract extensions and other matters in the local governments and school boards?

Why don't we wait and see who (if anyone) actually buys those plants and what price they pay? Then we would have some facts that can actually determine if the sale was a good move or not.

It seems to me that the coal fired plants that he is looking to sell are going to need a lot of money invested in them to bring them into environmental compliance. Getting rid of them might be the best way for the state to address the issue.

Republicans are brain dead zombies.

At least the zombies on our side are smart enough to not ruin a Special Olympics event...

So Dave, now I find your blathering on this string also. I can't believe you used a "zombies" reference after your buddy lefties dressed up as zombies (which one were you?) and protested a Special Olympics ceremony in the Peoples Republic of Madison. Either you are not well read on your own parties tactics or just not capable of contacting your comments to current events. Either way, grow up.

Cool story, bro.

@CowDung...Who ever buys the power plants are going to expect a return on investment. Guess who'se going to pay for that return.

What's the alternative? If they are going to cost too much to upgrade, the state might not be able to find a buyer. At least by having a negotiated sale rather than bids, the state can refuse offers that seem out of line.

If the state hangs on to them, we end up paying to upgrade the plants to meet environmental requirements.

I think we end up paying no matter what happens...

@CowDung...Here's a unique idea; shut them down and if we need the power build modern plants. I'm sure there are entities out there that would be willing to make the investment.

CD & Lyle.... The primary mission of the State of Wisconsin owned 'power plants' is to generate steam, just like the WE Valley Steam/Power plant or the WE Steam/Power plant at the Milwaukee County grounds. Buying steam from a private regulated utility is standard operating procedure in Downtown Milwaukee, as the valley plant has about 500 steam customers. These plants must be located fairly close to the customer, so building a new plant would be a considerable challenge and expense.

No bid contracts like Talgo? No wait that was Doyle, screwing Wisconsin business Super Steel. Doyle was king of no-bid contracts.

Weren't you the one that said they would never get enough signatures to force a recall against her ?

We all knew they would get signatures. Actually as a republican, great debate to have. Do we continue to overpay for services that are of the same quality of other states and run billion dollar STATE deficits (keep in mind only 5 million people in Wisconsin) or reign in spending to what we can afford, encourage more taxpayers (businesses, etc) and run an estimated $300 million surplus? Lets run that...

The issue with Talgo wasn't that it was a no-bid contract. The issue was from the fact that they are a Spanish company rather than a Wisconsin company.

There will still be a joint finance committee review of any sales. Considering the condition of the plants, they would be unlikely to actually get decent bids. Rather than take the low bid, they are free to reject offers that are deemed to be 'too low'...

Thanks for the link. I encourage everyone to find Abrahamson's dessent. I hesitate to summarize it, because it is worth the time to read. She gives me hope that someone with some responsbile position believes in legislative process and constitutional law.
Sadly, over half the State Supreme Court does not.

Fact, she did not disagree with decision, but with the speed it happened.

Maybe you should read it again Bewildered. The fact that it was a dissent means that she disagreed. She said it was rushed and not given the consideration that it deserved. She also had some less than flattering things to say about Prosser's and Rogensacks rush to get it out. Today a former member of the WSC who is currently teaching law criticized the court for its rush to ram this through. The fact is that Prosser and his right wing counterparts were trying to protect the republican Senators from having to take another vote on this. It is shameful that this is where we are today in our State.

So let's see, your against having a Wi company getting a state contract? Guess we don't need the jobs and tax revenue!

Now I see why the Wisconsin company lost out to Talgo on the deal--they didn't contribute to Doyle...

Dictators don't have to be consistent or honest.

Yes, it was. It was wrong. Walker was right to question the process of no-bid contracts entirely. Today he's singing a different tune. One has to wonder why, and why the legislature is so willing to go along with it.

The budget wasn't in need of repair before Scott Walker broke it.

Wow, 3 bill in debt and you claim Doyle's budget "wasn't in need of repair" ! I'll take some of whatever you are smoking!

You actually think a teacher who say teaches 27 second graders, some of which are ESL and a couple ADHD special needs day in and day out and has each of them working to their full potential, manages the discipline and all the social issues that come up, and gets every child in that class to improve their test scores pampered? Seriously? I couldn't do that job. Sheila Harsdorf does less and less every day for her constituents. Talk about pampered.

John Stossel needs to wean himself from the influence of Ayn Rand.

Not to worry, Cow. I feel your pain. I wish I had a nickel for every time I've heard the same thing.

Susie, the House Republicans would rather spend money tending to azaleas than providing food assistance to low-income mothers and children. That's just how they roll.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/14/house-republicans-food-assistance-families-azaleas_n_876568.html

Huffington Post post as a valid unbiased source? Oh come now, you can do better than that!

Joan, very entertaining post. So how would fix the 3 bill budget deb? Doyle and the Dems made sure it would be up to your granddaughter to pay for today's bills. Not the legacy I want to leave to my kids. We all caused this debt, shouldn't be us to fix it. In my house, we don't spend what we don't have.

But these are different times. Why do you think over the past few years major business headquarters have left our state? We want a economy that attracts businesses that provide jobs for the middle class, most of whom will not enjoy the six figure salaries of bus drivers with their full pensions/health care benefits that scam the system with overtime. Maybe I am mistaken and when you talk about the evil big business you mean the unions. Skimming their big six figure incomes off the mandatory union dues while extorting legislators and businesses to vote their way. And then they hide behind "but it's for the children" the wonderful MPS children that still can't read, despite all the money thrown at the system

TBS: On the six-figure buss drivers...

The six figures come from overtime. I believe the bus drivers you refer to are in Madison. If you are paying bus drivers overtime, it is because you don't have enough drivers to meet then needs of the transportation system. In order to eliminate the need to pay the overtime, you need to reduce the bus routes to fit the number of drivers you have or you need to increase the number of drivers you have so you don't pay overtime. If you increase the number of bus drivers, then you have to pay more health care, retirement, etc. benefits. If a bus driver gets $15 per hour, you can generally figure that benefits add another $15 a hour to hiring the driver. If you pay the drivers time and a half for overtime, then it is costing you an extra $7.50 per hour for the bus driver. Private industry uses the OT v. new hire option all the time...especially now when they don't know which way the economy is going to break. This is an everyday business decision. Of course, if you only look at half the cost picture, you can get up on you soapbox and demagogue your ignorance of business practices to fit you ideological politcal perspectives. It think this is covered early in the business 101 textbook.

The six figure bus drivers is because of a union contract that allows senior drivers to suck up all the overtime. Since the drivers pension is determined by their last couple years of earnings, the typical driver sucks up as much overtime as possible to pad their earnings the last few years and thus raise their retirement benefits above and beyond what they typically would be. All paid for by us without any contributions by the driver.

Is it the bus driver's fault? There must be some pretty smart bus drivers. Who comes up with these perks in the contracts? Apparently, the bus drivers will be exempt from the collective bargaining changes. It's interesting to note that on PBS Frontline that had a story of airline pilots. Many have to work two jobs just to make ends meet. Perhaps the pilots need a better union?

Funny how the unions supposedly agreed to live with the higher contributions to pensions and health insurance, but many locals agreed to contracts that don't comply with the contribution levels specified in the BRB.

Collective bargaining is what got us into the situation--it needed to be addressed.

Look at the author, he is liberal so his opinion is not a surprise. I guess your point is that a pro business mag is willing to have a variety of opinions while liberal rags will vet all authors.

http://trueslant.com/rickungar/2010/04/29/when-good-tv-networks-go-bad-the-demise-of-msnbc/
"Thus, MSNBC seemed the likely choice. Given my left leaning soul, I found that the tone of the network provided the comfort required to serve as the elevator music during my working hours while allowing me to more consciously ‘tune in’ as the day progressed and the ‘meat’ of the network’s line up began to show up."

Ah, I see, Happy. It's been too many years since college. It will be interesting to see what comes of the recent lawsuit though.

Thanks but no thanks. I kinda like this retirement gig and the only thing good about Madison is Camp Randall.

Mainstreet,
You're passing up a $100k/yr. gig. I think the line for applications is forming over at Sheila's new downtown Hudson Headquarters. You should reconsider.

Thurston Howell III... your logic based on WFB Mike's comment is not valid, you are denying the antecedent. WFB Mike is indicating that he does not believe the "right" to require workers to be in a union AND the "right" for union workers to negotiate healthcare and pensions are protected by the Constitution.

You then proceed to claim that Mike is claiming all laws not mentioned in the Constituion have no right to exist. Laws not protected by the constitution can clearly exist and I'm sure he supports various laws not protected by the constitution. That said, if politians decide to change those laws, they would be allowed as long as the result is considered constitutional.

In this case, I believe the resulting laws here are constitutional and will be found so by the US Supreme Court... if it even gets that far.

You have to look no further than Sheila FitzWalkerHarsdorf's mudslinging commercial - it gives a number for Shelly Moore's campaign. What do you know, Sheila finally provided a valuable service. She might just deserve that raise she voted for herself.

Nate, why would anyone keep a job like that? No one I know bleeds out a paycheck for terrible insurance and meager retirement returns. Is this the fault of people who went out and got a better job? Isn't this the argument that GOPers usually make?

What do you call 11 day forced furloughs for State Employees? The equivalent of a 3% pay cut and the cancelation of a 2% increase approved by Sheila Harsdorf on the Joint Finance committe that was scheduced to go into effect in June, 2009? Wreckless Government spending?
Tim and Jack, You both need a eye exam. Your sight, and thinking have all been polluted by Walkernomics.
You still believe in what George Herbert Walker Bush appropriately named, "Voodoo Economics". It would take belief in Voodoo dolls for that nonsense to ever work in reality. Well paid workers create demand, not Fat Cat's bankrolls sitting idlely in their matresses. The financial disaster the G.W Bush created is proof that this theory is doomed to failure. It's utter foolishness, yet you guys are under the Voodoo spell.

http://youtu.be/SaE7QuX-zhU

Who Do the VooDoo? YouDo!

Even more fundamentally, TH3 - unions come to be only in places where management at some point earned one though their own behavior. They are a relatively permanent penalty for management fouls. Once in place, they rarely go away.
When it comes to unilateral arbitrary and capricious decision making and profit hoarding, does anyone doubt that if Mr. Walker opened a widget factory, it would get unionized?

What kind of 'profit hoarding' has been going on in the public sector?

A factory would be a private sector enterprise. I for one could care less if it is unionized or not. The debate is public sector unions, big difference. When you can negotiate contracts with people you have bought and paid for is a dramatically different situation than negotiating a contract with a boss who has financial responsibility to a company or shareholders.

mainstreet - I'm tired of this old, old argument. Corporations pour money into elections, too, and then look for legislative and tax benefits. They also negotiate with those they helped elect. How about we just publicly fund elections and disallow both corporate and union money?

While its an old argument, it does carry some validity, as does yours. I agree totally on the public funded elections, but the mechanics of that would take a lot more work than I can imagine.

Public school teachers do not make less money than their counterparts in the Private Sector...

And those in the private sector don't have to teach ESL kids and the kids with special needs and deal with ever increasing class sizes. The private schools pick and choose who can attend their schools. And the private schools don't have to divulge their test scores. The public schools in Hudson are excellent, and our WKCE test scores attest to that fact. Education should be a priority in our society. You privatize education and guess who suffers - the poorer children.

My statement was addressing the claim that "Teachers and Public Workers make less than they counterparts is Private Sector."

Yes, private schools can pick and choose who can attend their schools. That doesn't mean that they don't have ESL and/or special needs kids. I personally know special needs students that are currently enrolled at private schools.

Why should private schools have to divulge their test scores? The idea of releasing test scores is for accountability in public funding. Private schools release their scores to attract students looking for a quality education. If a private school keeps their scores a secret, parents have the ability to choose a different school. Parents enrolling their kids in the public schools don't really have that choice.

Wow, CowDung. So I suppose my tax dollars can go into a voucher program without accountability? Really?
To use a Hudson reference - I have nothing against St. Pat's or Trinity, or that their teachers don't have to meet any standard, or that neither of them to my knowledge accept special needs kids. And if someone wants to pay to send their kids there, they will get an acceptable education, too. At least it will be acceptable to the tuition payor.
But not on my tax dollar, and not by robbing an excellent school system to do it.

With the voucher program, the parent is choosing the school. The 'accountability' comes from the fact that the parents can choose to go elsewhere if the school doesn't meet their standards or choose to not attend at all if the school refuses to release their test scores. With the traditional public school system, the parents don't have those same choices and are pretty much stuck with their local public school.

I know nothing about Hudson, St. Pat's or Trinity, but if the public school system is of a high quality, then they have nothing to fear with the voucher program. My local public school might even see a benefit from the voucher program if Milwaukee city kids can use vouchers to attend our public schools.

"But not on my tax dollar, and not by robbing an excellent school system to do it." That's exactly how I feel Dan BV. Now that our public schools are being defunded, and special ed teachers are cut, and the class sizes get bigger, etc., how long will it be before the school starts underperforming? My own private parochial school elementary education was terrible compared to the public school education my kids are getting in Hudson Public Schools, and my parents spent a fortune on it. But no one makes money off public schools, and they are wreckable, so let's wreck them. People who don't have kids in our excellent school system just don't get it, and they just don't care.

Why would your parents spend a fortune to send you to a terrible school?

Take a look at the defunding of your public school system that was happening under the Doyle administration between 2006 and 2008. The cuts to state aid were much bigger than those that Walker is making...

Rural area. Catholic school with nuns for teachers. Well intentioned parents. Bad education. (Nothing against ALL Catholic schools, but this was my experience.)

Walker's cuts are much bigger. Doyle cut education aid by 2.5%. Walker will cut it by 9%.

No, Doyle did not cut education aid by 2.5%.

In the Shorewood school district, 2006-07 state aid was cut 15.46%. In 2007/08, state aid was cut by 17.62%. In 2009/10, state aid was cut by 10.46%.

Walker's cuts for 2011/12 are 10%.

Here's the source. Look at the bottom of page 9.

http://www.shorewoodschools.org/documents/SDS%202011_2012%20Budget%20Packet%20_04_11_11.pdf

Walker's defunding of public schools, plus dramatic expansion of private school vouchers and independent charter schools equals privatizing public education. Walker proposes cutting school aid by $834 million over the biennium. He also proposes reducing the allowable revenues by approximately $825 per pupil over the biennium.

Even in the worst fiscal circumstances, in the last 18 years under revenue caps, Wisconsin lawmakers have always increased allowable revenues for Wisconsin school children. Walker's management "tools" are controversial - they will not provide enough savings to meet the challenges in many of the state's districts.

Walker loves to talk about giving "tool" to local governments while he ties their hands at the same time when it comes to their own budgeting and forcing them to hammer their own communities.

My local public school district is currently projecting a budget surplus for this coming year. I'm just not seeing all the 'gloom and doom' that everyone is claiming will result from Walker's budget.

Other budgets have allowed big increases in property taxes to cover cuts to state aid. That doesn't really do anything to address the real issues though--it just pushes the burden to the local level. Addressing collective bargaining abuses and having teachers pay into their pension and health plans is a huge step in the right direction.

Other districts may indeed be having difficulties--perhaps they rushed into contract agreements with their teacher unions that didn't allow them to save the money that they otherwise could have...

Perhaps these "other districts" appreciate teachers and actually want our children to get a great education with a manageable class size from teachers with experience who are happy and secure in their jobs and have a decent workplace. Perhaps these "other districts" look at the WKCE test scores and want to keep the quality of public school education at a high level. Perhaps the School Boards are comprised of members who have children that attend these public schools and they personally know the teachers and staff at their District's schools and have a working knowledge of what goes into educating every child from every socioeconomic background and ethnicity and ability level.

Or perhaps they realize that if a house is on fire, you take your children first. Education is the future.

Everyone appreciates teachers and want children to get a great education with a manageable class size from teachers with experience who are happy and secure in their jobs and have a decent workplace. The changes being made aren't going to destroy the public education system, and may work to improve it by taking kids out of crappy school districts (like Milwaukee) and allowing them to enroll at better schools (both public and private).

Asking teachers to contribute to their own pension and healthcare costs, at a level far below what is typical in the private sector, isn't unreasonable and can make up for a significant portion of the cuts. In Shorewood, the savings from the pension contribution alone was around $740,000.

Having teachers retained and compensated according to their skill and quality of their work seems much more reasonable than the current seniority system.

Over the last decade, Milwaukee has been a laboratory for private school vouchers, and the results have been poor: numerous studies have shown that vouchers failed to make any difference in student performance. Private school vouchers in Milwaukee (just like in Washington, DC and Cleveland) failed to produce the gains their supporters promised. Students in the Milwaukee voucher program actually performed the same or worse than comparable public school students.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/education/41868652.html

Walker wants to expand the ineffective voucher program while cutting funds to public schools. And (so much for the emphasis on testing) voucher students will now be exempted from the tests that revealed the program's failure. Walker's real goal is privatizing public education.

Vouchers will put private schooling within reach of upper middle class people, but still out of reach for poor and lower middle class people (because the vouchers won't entirely cover tuition), who will have to continue sending their kids to the public schools that are struggling for money. In addition, many private schools won't accept just anyone - some don't accept special needs because they're "too expensive" to educate.

Our public school has a lot of Milwaukee city kids thanks to the Chapter 220 program--I suspect that most of them aren't from upper middle class families...

The disadvantaged inner city kids are able to attend public school in the suburbs because of Chapter 220. Not sure what you're getting at - what exactly is the problem? My last response said "Vouchers will put PRIVATE schooling within reach of upper middle class people . . ." I do apologize if I misunderstood something?

Is there a mandate that vouchers must be used for private schools?

The bottom line is that when we have a crappy school district like Milwaukee, it makes sense to give parents options to send their kids to better schools. It doesn't matter if those schools are public or private--the idea is that those kids will have the opportunity to get a better education. Isn't that the goal behind a public education program?

To actually be more moderate about vouchers... Milwaukee's school district is in such bad shape that vouchers are a "try anything" system to help those who have little chance for success otherwise. The bigger concern outside the Milwaukee area is that it progressively becomes not a solution of last resort but is being used to subsidize private school education with tax dollars at the direct expense of the public schools and bringing the quality of the public school system down when it does.
Democrats (me included) see it as a desired outcome of right.
The very word "Private" by it's nature means exclusive, and in this case the exclusivity line is drawn by income and wealth levels. And is their any doubt what party favors those who have money?
Oops... give me credit that I at least tried to be moderate and see both sides...

Yes, CowDung, I believe that is the goal, but looking back through this thread, I note you cited a second goal of the voucher program: parental choice. I understand how and why this is attractive to many. But let's get to the real, primary purpose of public education: student achievement along measurable standards. If there's any data showing that vouchers result in improved academic results because of the vouchers, I'm unaware of it. If you know any, please share it.

There's a reasonable assumption that parents who will take advantage of a voucher will do some homework and select a "better" school for their kids. And there's reams of data, not to mention common sense, that kids who come from these households--involved and interested parents--already achieve better because of that vital environmental factor. I'm curious to know if vouchers have a track record of yielding superior achievement. I think you'd agree that throwing public money after something that doesn't necessarily work is a bad idea. After all,...

"...better education. Isn't that the goal behind a public education program?"

The way I understand the voucher bill is that it still targets lower income/problem areas. Not everyone is suddenly going to be eligible to drop out of the public school and enroll at some private academy for 'free'.

There was an article in the Journal the other day about school districts not being eligible for the voucher program.
http://media.jsonline.com/documents/vouchereligibility.pdf

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/124026659.html

Clearly, expanding the voucher program isn't an attempt to close public schools in favor of universal privitization of education.

It's a "slippery slope" issue for Democrats. Much like "tax increases" is a slippery slope issue for Republicans. Start doing it a little, and next think you know... (maybe not a good example)
And the local right wing here in Hudson thinks our school district costs too much and has wanted vouchers to go to the local parochial schools for 10 to 15 years. So because they do that (for reasons that have nothing to do with Milwaukee), you get the hard pushback you're hearing in our discussion. They call the district a monopoly and preach the "competition" issue as one of cost reduction, not quality improvement.
Here it has nothing to do with the real "quality education" issues of a voucher system at play in Milwaukee, it has to do with a variety of greed and shelfishness issues inherent in "government ala carte" thinking. Good for me, don't care about anything else...

Since you guys love the Koch brothers, I'll counter with our ace in the hole....Soros, or the AFL-CIO head clown.

@Nate...The Koch brothers are not the only ones, cna you name a few more ultra right wingnuts? I would be surprised if you could.

What are you getting at professor? I think you're asking me to call the kettle black.

@Nate...No, I am interested if you are aware of other contributors to the right other than the Koch brothers. In comparison, some that I have in mind make the Koch brothers look like small potatoes. Besides Soros on the left who else do you have in mind? Do you consider the Patriotic Millionaires as right wing or left wing?

Poor Tim, you are so very mis-informed. Why don't you go back to school? Maybe you'll get a clue, but then again , maybe not ?

@Nate...All I am trying to point out is that funding flows from everywhere. People that constantly taut one evil donator against another are usually pointing out the Koch brothers verses George Soros. For the lefties they need to switch to some better targets like Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation. The Bradley Foundation directly contribute more than $35 million per year to the right, every year.

Lyle, that was my point as well. Throw all the money you want at someone, it's what they get in return that we need to know and criticism. From what I read on here, people have concluded that those darn corporate interests are crushing the little people. It's old already. Rich people are evil, we get it. Maybe they should stop feeling sorry for themselves, rise above, and so forth.

@Nate...The problem we have is that money = speech = power. I have gotten to the point where I am so tired of of people supporting their own self interest without regards to how it effects others. The anger that has errupted has created conditions for real class warfare. Unfortunately it is coming to where the middle class is turning in on itself. The power brokers win when they have us fighting with each other, tearing the fabric of our society apart. Only when we can focus our attention on those who manipulate and exploit us for their own gain will we be able to heal.

It's also worth keeping in mind that many of the donors, particularly corporate donors, donate to both sides in order to hedge their bets. Something to keep in mind when calling out the other side for taking money from a particular donor. You may very well find that your side is getting a kick from them as well.

The "ruling insults openness."
Three words that say it all when you understand them.

And that is why the first thing the Rethugs did after the elections was to give tax cuts to the ultra rich. You think they needed tax cuts ? They had been getting them for 8 years under Bush Jr., and the jobs were still leaving the country. I'am not quite sure why you hate unions so much. Do you REALLY think that you and the people were paying their retirement fund all alone , and that the union members were paying nothing ? I'am wondering , did you try to get into a union at some point and was turned down ? Is that why you hate unions so much ? You poor thing.

Tell us why we owe our sister state the $$$$$. It could be because more of Wi. students are going to Min. schools than visa-versa!!!! Remember the state to state agreement Timy??? Make our schools more atractive then we woundnt have to worry about this. Oh thats to simple Ha> Taxes.... Make the CEOS pay more or are you one of them??? Jails are to good for the Walkers and his GOONS. put them back into earning an honest living and see how they like it!!

I actually feel the GOP looks weak and I am disappointed in them. They continue to worry about public perception, I could care less what you think of me as long as the job gets done. Every public union should be gone, including fire and police.

The teachers SHOULD be the ones who aren't getting the money, the kids will be fine if the municipalities do the right thing. They said they excepted the cuts, yet they are still doing contracts that are not showing that and we all know they will make up any concessions by lapping up tons of OT and other benefits they can take advantage of through collective bargaining. It's a joke and you know it, this is about the union fighting tooth and nail to keep their power and they are using the members to do it. Why is it such a big deal for the union to collect their own money for dues and such? Why should the state or employer have to collect it for them.

I never said you were a teacher or public employee, you are a union loyalist and most likely a member. I have no problem with the private sector unions, if they want to force a company under that's their own problem. Why do we keep forgetting the Federal employees can't be in a union, why the Hell are the state and local workers able to hold the taxpayers hostage? What ever happened to the term 'civil servant,' I think the union turned it into 'civil serve myself.'

I should know better than to debate with you.... God Bless

They did get elected by the majority right? Then why are they worried about the minority? Oh that's right, they minority likes to whine more.....

Doyle certainly didn't do what I wanted, but he was elected and did what he felt the people wanted. Should I have protested because I didn't get my way, nope not worth my time. He was elected and he was doing what he felt he needed to do. It is pretty telling that he didn't run for office again. Guess if you screw things up enough it is best to just cut bait and run. But my guy will have a balanced budget again, something all of us should appreciate.

Peace Out Homey

WOW! That was some good reading right there. You go with all that.

Now your really convincing us WE have the blinders on!

He couldn't. His own party won't cooperate. That's how far out there he is.

Here's how Walker attracts companies to Wisconsin: He signs a bill that prohibits local governments from passing ordinances guaranteeing workers' paid sick and family leave. The bill declares that statewide employee leave provisions trump local ordinances and prohibits cities, villages, towns and counties from adopting their own. Walker claims this removes another barrier to creating jobs.

I suppose next up for Walker is to attempt to ban any private company who wants to give their employees sick leave from giving them sick leave because it might make other companies feel like they need to do this too.

That's what union busting is all about, because unions set a standard that other companies must follow to compete for quality employees. If a thoughtful employer offers decent benefits to their employees then other employers might feel the need to also offer these benefits. So look for the anti regulation crowd to start trying to pass regulations against a company offering benefits beyond a basic paycheck, because that's the way the tide seems to be going.

Of course, if you can fire employees that are sick, you can replace them with new people and voila - you've just created a new job. Except for the fact that you have an unemployed sick person who will probably not be able to afford COBRA so maybe s/he will just die, reducing the number of unemployed. So, it's all good.

swkyle,

I stand corrected. Pedal to the metal. No much you said I can disagree with. I'm surpised you got away with using the P word.

Thurston, By out there I kinda meant outer space, not left or right field. Not to change the subject but I think thats why the 2010 election results happened. They had control of everything and still fought between themselves and only managed to pass a crappy health care bill which hopefully the supreme court finds unconstitutional. I don't have a favorite news source, I'm kinda all over. A couple hometown newspapers from out east, Pioneer Press, SO, Patch. TV is any local stations, CNN, Faux, MSNBC, CNBC, any of the regulars really. I.m sure you can help me out though. I would bet I more faithfully read some capital market, financial, and precious metal blogs more than anything. You'll love this though - When I first stumbled upon the Patch and was reading comments, (I always love reading comments but this is the only place I post) I thought this was some left wing blog disguised as a local news source because of all the commentators patting themselves on the back so often. Then I did a little research and found the AOL/Huffington Post connection and met Michael. Thus I decided to come visit you guys occasionally and help you out!

Dear Freedom of Choice Free Marketeer.
You seem so wise. Maybe you can answer a question that's been puzzling me. How do you vote with your pocketbook to protest being piped over to India for a customer service call? Don't tell me not to do business with the business that using them because then I'd have to starve since it is most companies now adays. I eagerly await your "Free Market" solution to this one.

Talk about judicial temperament. We've all been listening to these Republicans running around calling teachers "Thugs" and now it looks like the biggest thug of all is a member of our Supreme Court. This is a man who is in a position to judge the rest of us. What an embarrassment to not only the court but the entire state of Wisconsin.

It was well-known that Judge Prosser was a misogynist before the last election. Do you suppose he'll get a slap on the wrist for this? I hope the outcome isn't worse the next time he physically assaults a fellow judge.

If this is true he should resign or be forcibly removed from the court. These kind of activities undermine respect for the rule of law. This man should not be in a position to judge anyone.

But it would take a 4-vote majority to discipline him at all, let alone remove him. Besides, if he were to go away, guess who gets to appoint a replacement?

Is Robert Bork still alive?

Don't knock yourselves out getting a gallows erected quite yet:

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/124546064.html

Thank goodness he didn't tweet her a picture of his crotch -- he'd have been out on his ear before he knew what hit him. But what's two hands on the throat between friends, eh?

I feel like I've stumbled into an episode of The Simpsons. Mike, say hello to Amanda Hugginkiss if you see here there out on the links!