Of course, Bren would find a way to stand adamantly opposed to anything coming out of Walker's mouth.

So Bren, who are you backing for President this year? I seem to remember Obama making similar promises about jobs and falling significantly short, don't you? Not to mention that Obama put us a further $1T in debt in the process of breaking those promises. In fact, didn't he say that if he didn't have things completely turned around in three years that it would be a one-term proposition? Sounds somewhat like a promise to me, right?

Your beloved Democrats make the same kind of promises and dish just as much rhetoric. So, why haven't you heard enough from the left?

Mine would have created thousands of jobs across many sectors. Please stop using anything made of iron as it is hypocritical.

Yes, Mr. Hoffa, I have reached the point with Mr. Walker that I suspect everything he says because he has proven to me that advancing the ALEC agenda is more important to him (and his political aspirations) than representing our state.

Concerning Obama, the economy is showing signs of improvement. The Dow is up, confidence is beginning to return, yes, a lot more to be done, but things are on track.

@Bren -

Way to deflect and not answer the question/issue that I posed to you. You've been studying that liberal play-book I see :-)

@Nate...Your right, a college diploma is often wasted. Probably 50% of all students entering college shouldn't be there. You were smart to become a machinist, tool and die maker is even better. You should stay solidly middle class for the rest of your life with your skills. I wish we could convince more that technical skills are as important or more important than that bachelor's degree. Some of the best engineers that I know started out in the machine trades.

Quit swearing. Eewwww. They might have to build some muscles, break a sweat and get their hands dirty.

Absolutely nothing wrong with a solid middle class. Like they say, the higher you rise the harder you fall. What skills you learn you can use in you personal life too.

@Mau -- who swore? The only reason I'd hesitate to commit to a tech job is that they can be dead end, and they can disappear just like the degreed professional ones do. Machinists and steelworkers found that out.

I started out getting my hands plenty dirty and then went back to it when times got hard, only to find that the pay and benefits weren't what they used to be.

@Randy, just a pun there. My son who spent the past 7 years to become a journeyman plumber is getting ready to jump ship (so to speak) into another blue collar job. We're still waiting for the final word. He needs to pass the drug test and physical yet. Seems all he did in the past 7 years made him the prime candidate for this job. If he gets it, there will be no more lay-offs like in the trades. It is a well-paid position with a great future and benefits. It is a company that has already quietly hired about 200 people so far this year but does not like to be in the media spotlight.

They will get them in the same place as always- at a few bucks more in tuition. Would you rather they get it free?
Public school is a right. By that very nature the costs have skyrocketed. It is more costly per student to send a kid to public school than a UW school.
We know how throwing more cash at public schools has worked ( or not worked )
Anyone who thinks higher education should be funded on the backs of the taxpayer hasn't looked at the flaws in Big Government.

umm at the tech schools...... Universities constantly raise their tuition and offer nothing more to the student. Just because it is a cut doesn't mean it directly effects the student. Lots of overspending on "not the kids" was going on in state public education for years.

Cutting is good, if you haven't seen our deficits lately.

@Craig...I don't know why we can't move those trade educations into the high schools like when I was in high school and that's close to fifty years ago. We're already spending the money for the public schools, why not shift curriculum?

@Lyle -

Isn't that precisely what Walker is proposing here?

@Lyle - the tech Ed high school diploma covers a lot of this by offering classes & internships to HS students even as they fulfill core HS courses for graduation.

The tech ed bill. I believe, was or will be signed into law soon.

@JRH...I didn't read his comment as moving the tech skills training into the high schools. I took it to mean the students would go to the technical colleges. The tech colleges just don't have the facilities to accommodate all the students. Is he willing to putting forth the funds to either move tech to the high schools or make the tech schools bigger?

Lyle: Good question. Boys Tech used to produce Plumbers and skilled trades workers, but that was before the Union took over the education portion. I doubt today we would put returning GI's in a high school with kids like we did back then.
The only problem I can see with teaching trades today is the high cost of machinery. Many manufacturing firms may partner with local districts to have skilled employees available to them. If politics were removed from the discussion, I would bet many companies would step up to the plate.

What I do not see is a High School spending in excess of $200,000 for a CNC machine for Tech Ed.
Local business may be hard pressed to offer the use of theirs because of liability.

There are CNC simulator programs available that, best I can tell, eliminate the need to actually have the machine itself in place. The link below is for a private firm that trains such employees and it appears they use something like that:

http://www.mastertask.com/

Obviously something like that would be a lot less expensive and it would allow for training across different platforms and types of machines.

YOU SAVE YOUR MONEY pay your own way stop being a parasite to your fellow man! question : were you born a leech or did the democrates turn you into a dependant so you would vote for them??

Nate the Hate, music instruction is proven to raise IQ points in young children, and also develops the parts of the brain used for analytical thinking and memory, in addition to developing fine and gross motor skills. Those are elements required for success in any field. It's unfortunate that so many people have the misconception that music and art programs are not needed as part of a core curriculum, nothing could be further than the truth. When budget cuts happen, music and art programs are the first to be cut, followed by athletic programs, guidance counselors, librarians, school nurses, and cultural studies.

As was indicated above, tech purchases are expensive. The Bradley Foundation, Rexnord, Rockwell, and other local organizations are working hard to promote STEM training and school/work experiences. If you have visited MATC's Oak Creek campus, it is wonderful. There is good work happening here already.

Question for the room, how will Walker's latest brainstorm be funded?

Bren:

Do you have a link to the studies that prove the rise in IQ claim that you made? Studies I have seen indicate that there is a correlation between music and intelligence, but it doesn't prove causation. The idea is that those who are most likely to take music lessons tend to be more affluent and from families that value education, and tend to have higher IQs even without music lessons.

Cow, here's a link to testing from the University of Toronto--I can forward some other interesting data tomorrow that's on my other computer: http://www.erin.utoronto.ca/~w3psygs/MusicLessons.pdf

The study does indicate that entering grade school also tends to raise IQ.

Thanks for the link, Bren.

I don't really see how they can come to that conclusion. From what I can see in my initial scan of the report, all of the groups reported an increase in IQ, and those who took the lessons had higher IQs to begin with. The fact that the 'lessons' kids had higher IQs going in seems to indicate that they may be in a home environment that was already promoting IQ growth and they would have made similar gains without the lessons.

Cow, the data is there. This study was cited in the NYT last year. There are other studies using brain scans that show which areas of the brain are stimulated by performing music. I'll forward links when I get to my other computer.

There is a reason why music class was traditionally included in the core curriculum (theory, Orff instruments, etc.). Music instruction accesses math, history, social studies, and even science, sort of the educational "glue" that ties all academic subjects together. It concerns me that those American icons, high school and college band/orchestra programs, are under threat because of cuts in music programs. I read somewhere that there are fewer than 100 full-time music teachers in MPS this year because of budget cuts to serve about 200 schools. The 2012-2013 school year is going to be very challenging.

Visual art is also important. Art class is where children develop interests in fine art,architectural, graphic, fabric, interior, and industrial design, engineering, and science. Without opportunities to explore the arts, career doors close.

This is why I am so furious about the cuts to education, we are risking opportunities for a generation of children (music and art lessons are particularly effective when started early).

Every kid deserves an education that includes the arts!!!

Studies are out there showing that brains are stimulated by many things--music, playing sports, etc. At the elementary school level, it's great to have kids taking art and/or music classes. I think they should also be taking more science classes than they currently do. Interest in the sciences can either be stimulated or shut out forever based on their exposure to the subject early in their school career.

At the high school level, I don't see it as being nearly as important as a strong math and science program, and when funding is limited, I'd rather see the music program scaled back a bit to invest more funding into STEM programs.

Funny how you are furious at cuts to education (but only when Walker makes the cuts), yet don't seem to be upset when WEA Trust is overcharging school districts or that the unions have abused collective bargaining to the point where the taxpayers cannot afford to keep funding everything.

What we need is "STEAM," Science/Technology/Engineering/Arts/Mathematics because they interrelate, make it interesting and makes the information stick. It's also important to establish a continuum through secondary school for maximum benefit.

Budget cuts to science programs usually result in the teacher doing an experiment while the class watches--it's not interesting. Remove the music relationship and it becomes even more dry. The school day was well designed to include many elements, phy ed, cultural studies, the arts and sciences. Foreign language instruction and extracurricular activities rounded out the education, while shop and/or Home Ec helped develop school/life/work skills. Now there's less incentive to stay in school, and drop out rates are a serious concern for the individual and society.

What's happened in schools is a tragedy. And no, I'm don't agree with your comments about overcharging, union, etc. Teachers with a Masters could make a lot more than $45-$70K = benefits in the private sector. Gale Klappa, CEO of We Energies' total compensation in 2011 was $11,579,228, and we paid him a base salary of $1,129,008. He has a Bachelors degree in Communications. So no, I don't believe that teachers are overpaid, especially considering the many issues most have to deal with during the school day.

Teachers pay is a non factor. If they wanted to be a millionaire they picked the wrong profession. They knew the pay scale before entering the profession. Masters is just a piece of paper. What you do with it or what you studied to obtain it is what matters. They teach, not invent or run a billion dollar business. They knew this before entering college and are free to leave if they feel more money is needed.

I have heard teachers bitch about paying a plumber $60/hr. Plumbers pay 100% of health care, vacation, retirement, and more.
Hourly, teachers make a lot more than that.
The work environment for plumbers varies, but I think it is safe to say they deal with environmental issues more than teachers. Asbestos, CO fumes, Chemicals, etc.
Teachers have to deal with brats, but they knew that going in.

Good one Craig. Teachers complaining about paying plumbers $60 to clean up their crap.

@Mau: Perhaps you could share the prevailing wage for plumbers, and all of the deductions from their check? The $60/hr rate is not their wage, but what the plumbing company charges.
All this screaming because teachers have to pay a small portion for benefits ...
I'd like them to see a real world example.

Guys, when your toilet isn't flushing, no fee is too high. Last summer I watched a fellow preparing to go down into my septic tank wearing a respirator. I resolved then to sign my check with a smile.

Bren:

I guess I never saw where art and/or music interrelate to maths and sciences. How is it possible that I graduated with an engineering degree since I cannot play an instrument and haven't taken an art or music class since the 9th grade?

How can you not think that WEA Trust was not overcharging when they suddenly were able to lop hundreds of thousands off their prices in order to keep from being replaced by another insurance provider in many localities?

The abuse of collective bargaining really doesn't have to do with teacher pay rates--the problem comes from the no-cost (for teachers) Cadillac level benefits packages, and forcing districts to either self insure or to buy WEA Trust insurance...

Complaining is human nature. Someone is always going to be doing something that someone else doesn't like. It's not just teachers.

And I'm not going to hate teachers or any other public employee because Scott Walker tells me to. I have my own mind and I'm not afraid to use it.

@Randy, as an apprentice plumber one of my son's jobs was to unplug the drain in a funeral home's body prep room. Being on a ladder he wasn't able to get out of the way when it blew. By law, septic workers are no longer allowed to enter a septic tank.

@Bren -

Scott Walker isn't telling you to hate teachers or any other public sector worker for that matter.

As to the abuses of property taxpayers at the hands of WEAC, that's a simple matter of fiscal reality. It amazes me how you'll go on and on about the Koch Bros, and yet can't prove how they benefited by a single dollar under Walker. Meanwhile, you turn a blind eye to realities surrounding WEAC and the health insurance scam that they were running despite there being evidence of such beyond all reasonable doubt.

How is it that you're not partisan?

@Craig, if you can find a plumber for $60/hour count your blessings. Maybe this was a non-union plumber. I just heard yesterday a friend paid $120/hr in Franklin. Don't know if it was union or not.

The actual wage may be 1/3-1/2 of the hourly charge. There is a great expense to the company to get an apprentice through the program. Union shops make it more expensive. It takes 5 years of classes and work hours to get to get through the apprenticeship, if you can find a plumbing company willing to sponsor you. And you can keep steady employment. Then you have to get approval from a board and the state to take the test. No sick pay, no vacation pay (or vacation at all if they are busy), not all hours over 40 are overtime, there is no seniority or job security, if they don't like you you're back on the bench. I think the employer puts about $3.50 per hour worked into a fund that you draw from to pay for a high deductible poor coverage union insurance . So if you don't work, you don't have insurance. You go where the work is, no matter how far you have to drive or what the hours are. This is not negotiable. A high wage does you no good if there is no work. As a union apprentice you are indentured to the local for 5 years after you complete the program. That means no working for non-union plumbers or any other job with plumbers. Those who have been laid off were told to find a different occupation.

mau: I have a retired plumber in the family. I know at one time the union scale was ~$36/ hr. They had deductions of ~$12/ hr for all the benefits (in other words, they paid out of pocket for everything).
This isn't exact, and is old numbers.
The past few years it has sucked to be in the trades. I hope after Jan. 20, 2012 things will start to turn around.

@Craig, top range for Journeyman is higher now. Master would be higher but more education and responsibility. Sad to say this is hurting the older large companies as they need to charge too much to cover their overhead. Many who were laid off and were Masters have started their own business. So they are giving the big companies a lot of competition.

My dad was a non-union Master Plumber, Master Electrician, and had his own business and hardware store. He sponsored my oldest brother through the whole thing but did not pay much and no benefits. When my dad wanted to retire in about 1995 my brother could not afford to take over the business. Dad's supply bills alone were $10k per month. My brother is now a Master Plumber and Master Electrician with his own non-union business, with no employees and no store. I remember all the problems my dad had with the unions trying to put him out of business and those are the headaches my brother did not want. Plus there are a lot of headaches dealing with the state and local community rules and regulations.

The fall started with the housing bust. Not under Walker. Problem is everybody was overbuilding homes, hospitals, universities. It was nice Mechanical Contracting company and for the trades to work but in the end it bit them. Many apprentice were laid off before they ever got their journeyman license. My son made it. But he's trying to make a career change now.

Here is one lie. Had I known what his true motives were I would not have voted for him! That is why a lot of people are "peeved" with him.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/141256063.html

No it's really not. It's because he took their gravy train away

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UErR7i2onW0

Clark, "we're broke" but have money to spend on changing the high school health curriculum. We've got $5,000,000-$6,000,000 to spend on a Voter ID bill we don't need. We seem to have money for some things, but not to fully fund others, such as EIC, Homestead, BadgerCare, K-12 education, etc.

I'm not a Democrat, and I find the bait-n-switch Walker administration unacceptable. The more I read, the more committed I become to recall.

Bren is still in the closet I see.
I was born on mars, the more I read the more I believe it is true.
Voter ID isn't going to cost near 6 million
The recalls are going to cost tens of millions.
We seem to have money for some things, but not to fully fund others

Let's see, where to start. Do you honestly believe that people with advanced degrees don't work? As has been said elsewhere here, a lot of the trade jobs have gone overseas (The metalwork for the dome at Miller Park came from China, for instance). Speaking of the printing industry, Quad/Graphics just announced it is laying off 600 people and closing a plant in Arkansas. It's more important than ever for workers to have a diversified, competitive portfolio.

Scott Walker said a lot of things on the campaign trail. 250,000 new jobs, balanced GAAP budget, negotiate with public employee unions, etc. After 11 months of minimal job growth outweighed by job losses, January 2012 numbers do look better. Is this because the national economy is returning to life or because of Scott Walker? I'm thinking the national economy. We still have a $3.6 billion projected GAAP deficit, and a $143,000,000 projected cash shortfall to go with it. There have been public employee layoffs-Walker's budget called for 21,000+ to be removed from the state payroll during this budget. The budget "repair" bill did nothing to repair the budget, it provided funds for ALEC corporate tax cuts. Reward the "good" teachers and "force the lazy, bad teachers to quit or retire." What makes a "good" teacher? What makes a "lazy, bad" teacher? Who decides?

The ALEC agenda reared its ugly head before Walker was even inaugurated. We need a governor for Wisconsin, not ALEC/Big Business. I'm thinking recall.

Oak Creek, there was also a great chance for environmental disaster due to the lack of transparency in regards to soil composition, etc. If that area is safe for taconite mining I'm certain it will happen; but it needs to be done the right way, with soil testing and shared results, public education, and defined, not relaxed regulations.

As I also pointed out before, GTAC's entire lead team for this project came from out of state. They are an established company with their own contacts. How many of the temporary, and even permanent jobs, would have gone to Wisconsinites?

Democrats didn't "run the mining company out of town." Questions did. That doesn't sound an alarm bell for you?

And why do we keep focusing about public employee unions. They are one part of a much larger issue.

Bren, must you resort to fear and lies to make a point? Do you see "environmental disasters" in Michigan and Minnesota, who are making money off their mines?

Lies and distortion, the politics of fearful limp wristers.

Bren you keep bringing up soil testing and I keep asking you why this is relevant in taconite mining. Why do you continue to dodge this?

Yes, if you are asking about environmental issues in Michigan, the Kalamazoo River has been polluted for 20 months after a pipeline leaked bitumen. The oil from shale mining is mixed with chemicals so that it will flow through a pipe. These evaporated during the spill, fumes getting into the eyes and throats of people living in the area. Some oil floats on top and they suction that off, but most sunk to the bottom of the river. They have to "agitate" the water so that oil globs lift.

In Ohio, a well that takes the polluted water that is used in shale oil mining has been determined to be the cause of a number of small earthquakes in the surrounding area (the water is "injected.")

I posted the link to the report indicating that GTAC and other mines in MN and MI have had about $10,000,000 in clean up orders, violations, stipulations, etc.

Steve, the soil content is important in this type of mining because if pyrite is in the soil, it creates sulfuric acid in the waste products after the removal of iron ore. Three samples were taken independently by geologists-one sample was found to contain 20% pyrite. Apparently, the mining bill used erroneous language that defines "sulfide ore body" as meaning that other minerals are present, which is not true. It suggests that someone knew something about the potential presence of other minerals and wanted to keep it quiet.

It's not a soil sample but an exploration drilling core sample. Soil or overburden is removed before mining to get down to the "rock". Only one core? Before mining a lot of core samples are taken to find the ore body's width and depth. I hope they found some pyrite "The oxidation of pyrite (iron sulfide) by molecular oxygen produces iron(II), or Fe2+:"

would be a crappy mine without iron

It is from my years of working non-union jobs that I began to appreciate unions. Without them, employers WILL expose you to hazardous materials and situations, and they will short you on compensation.

For anyone who says that unions are obsolete because we have worker protection laws, just take a look at Maine. Laws can be changed.

What kind of hazardous materials and situations are the unions protecting teachers from?

Let me clarify this. I never said I am against unions. But all unions are not created equal. I worked in an occupation in a private sector union. I was also on the Union Executive Committee. My husband works in an occupation in a private sector union. In the occupations that I had and my husband still has, I would not want to see it without union representation. The health hazards and working conditions of the occupation are just too high. My son is a union plumber. In his union I have never seen so many who profess to be union brothers, stab each other in the back. They are not a union of the same standard as I belonged to.

My dad and brother are in the central part of the state where the unions are not like urban areas. For as many years as I can remember, my dad especially was under constant pressure to become a union shop. He fought them. The union did everything in their power to have him lose his license and force him out of business. Because he wasn't indebted to the union, didn't have to pay union scale, he was able to charge less for his services. Even through all this he made it to Master Plumber and Master Electrician. The union finally gave up because it was a losing battle with my dad.

Thing is these unions that abused their power as losing out. I think if they had accepted that there is a place for both union and non-union shops, they wouldn't have such a bad reputation.

@CowDug, exactly. If over all these years, they had made some common sense compromise, they wouldn't be in this situation. But they were greedy and didn't care about anything but their own power. "It's for the children", bull.

@Ron -

Are you calling me a traitor? Is it because I had the IBT endorse Nixon, or because my legacy caused them to endorse Reagan in both contests? The Kennedy's and the Democrats were our enemies, and remain such to this day - not the GOP! Remember, I was always against public sector unionization - just read my books!

BTW - Test Fleet was legit and so were all of the Vegas loans! Hell, those loans made more money for the Central States Pension Fund than the conservatorship of Wall Street bankers that took over the fund on a federal court order because of my alleged corruption. Think about that one for a while!

Not to mention that Bobby never jumped from the capitol dome like he promised! Dirty lying Kennedys!!!

My dad didn't slightly undercut anybody. He charged low prices and besides providing credit with no interest, he even bartered for pay. Their was a stack of unpaid bills dating back 50 years prior to his death. Talk about the executor of his estate trying to collect on those bills. And being a business in a farming community, he had no local union competition. He was getting harrassed by the urban unions because they wanted a foothold.

There are many non union business that follow safety laws and provide a safe environment for their workers or are not a sweat shop. Not every union business provides a safe environment.

Unlike you I see a place for both union and non-union business. So that makes me a hypocrit.

@Hoffa, was the bridge at Chappaquiddick built by the teamsters :)

At no time in history was the IBT stronger than under my tutelage! Remember the National Master Freight Agreement?

All of those charges were trumped-up Kennedy lies! Don't believe what people would have you think with fancy words. I never benefited one dollar from the loans made by the pension fund. Legal loans. Loans that made profits for the union. And what is wrong with that?

Ah yes Vegas - that shining beacon of light for unadulterated capitalism! Who doesn't love Vegas! Good old Sheldon, Steve, and Kirk - they have our back, that's for sure!