Democracy vs. Plutocracy. What kind of America do we want to leave for future generations?

Why is all that is ever mentioned is the Union Busting that we are fighting against. And who said anything about taxes having to be raised. Do most people forget the first thing walker did when he got into office was give away 140 million of our tax money to the rich. What about conspiracy to commit a riot. What about breaking the open meeting law. What about his friends the crooks. Has anyone researched his buddies. Over 100 million they had to pay in fines for all the laws their companies have broken in the united states. The fact they have been dealing with Iran for the past ten years. Their was nothing wrong with the finances of our state until walker took office. I cant believe how blind some of you are and cant see past just the union bit of it. Anyone who would be for walker is either a millionaire or completely blind. Is this really the kind of person anyone would want in any kind of office position? REALLY?

If you truly think that there was nothing wrong with the finances of our state until walker took office, then you are the one who cannot see. Turn off Rachel Maddow and start informing your self with some facts...

@Shane, who are you talking about? Who got the $140 million? What conspiracy to commit riot? Who are his buddies, who are the crooks? You talking about Indian Gaming? Oh no that was Doyle. The Mafia? Oh no that is who controls the unions and gambling. What laws did they break? Who is dealing with Iran? China, Russia, the CIA? Where and what is your proof and who are you talking about. I've got 20/20 vision so I must be a millionaire.

"It's just a flesh wound!" You sound a lot like the Black Knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. A great example of denial.

thats ok ignorance is bliss.

@Phil scarr
I saw that video tonight. it was a hoot and fits the Walker fans to a Tea!

Meaningless as signers are told. • You can circulate or sign a recall petition even if you have already signed another recall petition.

http://www.onewisconsinnow.org/blog/2011/11/recall-petitioners-rights.html

Signer's need not have voted in past elections.

They do not have 300,000 valid signitures

• You can circulate or sign a recall petition even if you have already signed another recall petition

http://www.onewisconsinnow.org/blog/2011/11/recall-petitioners-rights.html

Meaningless as signers are told. • You can circulate or sign a recall petition even if you have already signed another recall petition.

http://www.onewisconsinnow.org/blog/2011/11/recall-petitioners-rights.html

My point was 300K vs 2 million, isn't speaking for a majority on either side of the issue. I'm aware one need not have voted to sign the sheet nor even be a registered voter. But, what was their excuse for not voting.

I thought the idea floating around to notarize the sheets would be good for both sides. This would eliminate hanky panky on both sides. If someone is serious about making this all without controversy on either side, it isn't a difficult thing to do.

@mau Lets see where the number ends up, there are hundreds of thousands that have yet to sign. Not to mention once they get about 700,000 they will most likely stop. Personally I wish they would keep going because I think they could get a million easy, but its time and money better spent making sure scooter goes bye bye.

@Jay, I'm not confident enough to predict which way the election, if it happens, will go. As far as collecting signatures, my understanding is the GAB will not be having workers entering the names on the recall petitions into a database to verify duplicate signatures. So yes it will probably be quite easy to get enough signatures for a recall. Will the election be run above board, do enough voters in Wisconsin agree with your feelings. If your side is successful, and they find out that what Walker did (like Carter did on the national level) works, will the new Governor and lawmakers overturn Act 10. Neither Clinton or Obama made any effort to restore federal workers collective bargaining. And if they attempt to overturn Act 10, will the Republicans flee to Illinois to stop the vote?

Yeah, good luck with that.
2010 Election Results (http://bit.ly/sjq69m)

37,165 57.11% CHRIS LARSON Democrat
27,772 42.68% JESS RIPP Republican

will never happen, you also fit into the ignorance is bliss.

Is he the guy who has been arrested twice? Shoplifting and disorderly conduct. Behaves like an MO ( a person who needs mental observation under Chapter 51 ) when his car was towed?

You miss one of your meetings? Fall off the wagon?

Great Idea! Let's go for it!

I'm all for it! Where do we get the bumoer stickers and signs?

And that pesky 24% of Republicans surveyed who also want Walker recalled. Don't forget about them!

if you didn't care you wouldn't have posted. how come you don't have a problem with the koch brothers, karl rove and alec trying to buy elections or is it only right for the righties. and i guess it's only right for the righties to hire out of state felons to steal from people in green bay and buy drinks for people to get them to sign re-call papers.

Oh please. Recalls are due process. Just like when the Republicans recalled Democratic Gov. Davis in California. That is how they ended up with Republican Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger. I suppose he needed to grow up?

Linda - thanks for bringing up the Koch Bros again. Shows you are reading your union talking points. You offer conjecture and no proof - typical.

Great Macy! I second all your ideas!

Excellent recitation of the Koch brothers-funded talking points MacyFray. I'm not sure if the 500 teachers/employees in the Milwaukee public school district that lost their jobs are thanking Scott. Class sizes in MPS schools are hitting 30+, and a number of SAGE schools (a program that supported smaller student/teacher ratios) have had to discontinue the program due to lack of funding. There are 46.5 music teachers to serve 83,000 students attending 170 MPS schools this year (in addition to supporting other academic subjects such as social studies, mathematics, and language arts music instruction provides cognitive, physical, and socialization benefits. It's the educational "glue" that holds the other subjects together).

Job cuts, diminished educational opportunities for students, closing schools, larger class sizes. These are Scott Walker's contributions to Wisconsin's K-12 children. Anyone who supports tis agenda, in my opinion, also supports oppressing children.

Bren:

You do realize that the situation with MPS isn't because of Walker's budget repair bill, don't you?

@Bren -

WOW - I guess the Daily Kos really missed the mark in properly assessing the situation with MPS!

You may want to try other media outlets if you really want to know the TRUTH about what's going on with MPS and who's really to blame for their woes!

And funding/money has nothing to do with it, as Milwaukee County has one of the highest property tax burdens in the entire nation and MPS receives more in annual state aid than any other district in the state. It's obvious that whatever they are doing in Milwaukee County isn't working. But it's their own fault for continuing to vote in incompetent local leaders and union juiced-in school board officials. Based on the voting trends in Milwaukee County, they're getting exactly what they want - and unfortunately, it's not about the kids at all.

Apparently, you're the one who supports oppressing children Bren.

Ahhh, the concern troll. Well played, sir. :-)

don't you worry your ignorant head, we will get much better then walker ever was.

lol, we can go back to Doyle days or even worse. Yep liberalism is a shining beacon of success worldwide.

Hey, Linda, can you give me an example of a "State snow plow driver?" You can claim they make whatever number you want seeing as the position doesn't exist. Do a little homework before trying to spout the same old drivel out as fact.

@Linda. $11 an hour is pretty good money for the poor job they do plowing in Wauwatosa. I don't know that there are "state snow plowers." The Dems can get all the signatures they want (and they are) but the proof will be in the confirmation of said signatures.

Linda's comment about snowplow drivers earning so little money and how we should do some research before making claims seems to have gone away...

Hate is great news? Not in my world.

• You can circulate or sign a recall petition even if you have already signed another recall petition

http://www.onewisconsinnow.org/blog/2011/11/recall-petitioners-rights.html

This story is meaningless

@Robin -

Or how few actually hate Walker - definitely not a majority of the state! Good news for Walker!

Attack the poor? You mean the prison guards with six figure pensions? Or maybe the professors that barely work and then take year long sabbaticals? The poor? You mean the government union thugs that retire at 55 with guaranteed pensions for life? Are those the poor that you're talking about?

Hudson, Hudson, Hudson, there you go again spewing outright lies. The only state worker who might retire with a six figure pension is the governor. And the only government workers who retire at 55 with guaranteed pensions for life that a person can live on are the governor, senators and representatives. And, they certainly are not poor. Just more of your jealous carping about things you know nothing about.

Linda:

"Wisconsin’s top paid state government employee is David C. Villa who oversees pension investments for Wisconsin state and local government retirees. His 2010 compensation — salaries and performance-based bonuses — exceeded $560,000."

http://www.wisconsinreporter.com/meet-the-wisconsin-state-employee-big-bucks-king-and-his-half-a-million-dollar-court

Five of the 16 state 'correctional officers' in the state salary database made over $100k in 2010.

http://wisconsinopengov.org/payroll2/

Hudson, Cow, I have to ask why you are so incensed about state employees/executives earning a competitive wage. I am looking at the 2011 Business Journal's List of highest paid executives of publicly held companies. #100 on the list is William Reitman of Briggs & Stratton, Senior VP, sales and customer service. This last guy on the highest paid list made $571,293 in total compensation for the previous fiscal year. A customer service guy in the private sector makes more than the guy who manages pension investments (at $0 liability to the state).

Here's the one that floors me--the retired Chairman of Kohl's Corp, R. Lawrence Montgomery, had a compensation package of $12,750,102 during the same year. I wonder how much he pays in taxes each year? Probably less than I do.

I'm not incenced at all about state employees/executives earning a competitive wage. I was responding to Linda's claim that the governor and politicians being the only state employee that might retire with a livable pension...

I'm imagining the chuckle Bill would get out of Bren referring to him as a "customer service guy". You may routinely miss the mark by a wide margin, Bren, but I will give you credit for producing some major league LOL-ers on a regular basis as well.

@Hudson Resident -- Yes, like decreasing the earned income tax credit for the WORKING POOR. And let's not forget the decrease to the homestead tax credit, utilized by many ELDERLY people in the state.

Tell me, Hudson, are you okay with the fact that Walker spent more money in his budget than has ever been spent before?

There's not necessarily anything wrong with having a budget that grows bigger every two years. Most budgets tend to get bigger over time. Did you ever notice that the cost of everything seems to go up every year?

http://wisconsinopengov.org/payroll2/ Looked up this link and who they are. Brady foundation sponsors them in part, which is telling. Since they are such a souce for facts why don't they also report State representative, congressmen and senators wages and amounts of campaign contributions they receive? Let's be fair and look at the bigger picture as well. Easy to target the middle and working class.

Nice! Very nice!

How can anyone just choose to ignore these FACTS, and yet claim to be an informed and educated member of the electorate?

HYPOCRITES - every last of 'em!

All you need to see is the actual budget to know who's getting the shaft and who's getting the breaks. The Koch Brothers, Bradley Foundation, etc., don't itemize their political contributions, so your figures mean nothing. Here's an article for both of you:

http://www.twincities.com/ci_19423083?IADID=Search-www.twincities.com-www.twincities.com

One would think that when Walker got that prank call, he would have known it was not a Koch Brother by his voice. hummmm....

Keith - Every time I see you post in one of these threads, I notice that its not to add to the conversation, rather its to test some lame talking point of the day from the GOP.

The desperation of the Walker clan is almost laughable at this point.

Perhaps you should note that some on your side are guilty of the same sort of thing...

The desperation of the Anti-Walker clan is almost laughable at this point.

So what does Wisconsin benefit by recalling Walker? Hmmm.... Well, until they can get the Senate and Assembly, a big fat zero. But if they can overturn the will of a valid election, hmmmm.... Oh yes, $760 million right off the bat in new taxes! For what? Will it improve service? Not!!! It will go to pacify the elitist public worker who thinks it is their right to SCREW us over!!! Oh, and who will they run? Barrett or Falk? Do you really think that the state is that stupid??? But if that happens, then what? We can expect higher taxes for light rail (43 net jobs) at a cost of billions; more green jobs (40), and back to the racketeering and bought politicians by a group of union thugs who think that the 85% should pay for the comfortable lifestyles of the 15%. Really, you people need to get a life, appreciate that you still have it better than the 85% and give Walker a big, sloppy, wet kiss that your sorry butt still has a job! And maybe if the teachers put half hasmuch time on their kids as they do on the recall effort, maybe, just maybe our kids would get a decent education!

Keith: Are you referring to this?

Walker supports a bill that would
take away the right of unions to
negotiate health care benefits.
Ryan Murray, Campaign Policy
Adviser for Walker, said "The way
the proposal would work is we
would take the choice out of the
collective bargaining process."

Hardly an honest assessment of what Act 10 actually implemented. No reference to the lock-in to inflation for negotiations, no mention of the changes to the recertification process.

You didn't read that very carefully, did you? People are saying that he didn't campaign on eliminating collective bargaining. Nowhere did he ever say that he was going to just totally get rid of it. The link you keep providing shows that he wanted to take chosing health care providers out of collective bargaining, not taking it completely away.

@Rooster---It's called reading comprehension. Try it sometime. School Districts now have the tools to choose what healthcare providers they want to use, saving BOATLOADS of money. How much money? See for yourself here: www.reforms.wi.gov

Rooster - Apparently you didn't read Act 10, because they did not eliminate collective bargaining. You whiners still have more collective bargaining privileges (collective bargaining is not a right guaranteed by the state or U.S. Constitution) than federal public workers. Give me a break! WEAC completely outlined before the election what Walker is going to do, period. So You and your leaders are lying that Walker never campaigned on what he was going to do.

Rooster, you've done what many people thought was impossible. You've laid an egg.

Collective bargaining has not been completely taken away. It's been restricted in terms of what's on the table, but not eliminated. So much for not reading carefully.

You're right my mistake for speaking in hyperbole. Collective bargaining remains in place for wages up to the rate of inflation. Whoopee.

Hyperbole? No, you were just wrong, Rooster. The whole point of your comment related to collective bargaining being eliminated as opposed to what actually happened, which is precisely what Keith's link indicated was known prior to the election. Not surprising, though. This whole thing is about emotion, not facts, and you're just another puppet on twisted strings.

Sorry Bob-o, but you're wrong. I was referring to the fact that what Keith said in his comment is not fully reflected in the article. He's trying to make is seem like Governor Walker detailed all that he wanted to reform about CB, but it only mentions health care benefits; it doesn't mention eliminating CB for wages or working conditions. Those are some pretty drastic changes.

It's not about emotions for me. I'm not in a union, and I have no people related to me in unions. I'm not affected by this bill. I'm not anybody's puppet. I'm able to look at it objectively.

Rooster, the fact that you stated that Walker has completely "eliminated" collective bargaining is an indication that you may indeed look at stuff, but that you come away from having done so without being able to absorb what it is you're looking at.

You guys keep trying to grind this thing down to him not having told you, point for point, what he was going to do. As you're proven wrong, you grind things down further. Pretty soon we're going to be hearing that because he didn't let everyone know what color tie he was going to wear on the day he was sworn in as Governor, he deserves to be ousted for office for that offense.

Find me a politician, anywhere, who's laid out every aspect of his game plan from day one and stuck to it and maybe some of what you're whining about will hit home. Until then, just admit you're just another sore loser who can't stand not getting their way and is grasping at straws to attempt to justify a do-over.

Keith: Are you referring to this?

Walker supports a bill that would
take away the right of unions to
negotiate health care benefits.
Ryan Murray, Campaign Policy
Adviser for Walker, said "The way
the proposal would work is we
would take the choice out of the
collective bargaining process."

Hardly an honest assessment of what Act 10 actually implemented. No reference to the lock-in to inflation for negotiations, no mention of the changes to the recertification process.

Governor Walker has always done what he said he would do. That is why he won in liberal Milwaukee 3 times, and that is why he will win again with this nonsense recall effort.

Michael Schwister- Apparently you didn't read the article as almost all the false claims come from WEAC and the Democratic Party. The truth is getting out and the unions, the Democratic Party, and the public workers are the liars. My sources above include WEAC, the Wisconsin State Journal and Common Cause, all left leaning sources. Another truth is Wisconsin is one of 41 states where public workers average salaries are higher than the private sector. That kind of brings a whole new meaning to "public servant". And Linda, before you spout your big mouth, that average is $2,500 higher than the private sector. You are all a bunch of brain-washed lemmings (union mentatilty) that out of your own selfishness, have ruined our schools, let our highways rot all so you can have the mother-of-all healthcare plans and a pension that is so out of touch with reality. And are willing to sell our children down the river to keep the over bloviated benefits. Three words for you; shame, shame, shame.

According to Politifact, one of Walkers lies is the ""The Madison-Milwaukee (high-speed) train line is dead." He sure seems to have gotten that one right. Politifact takes statements and turns them around however they find usefull for their cause. Truly a junk site which I have challenged many of their opinions and they simply say sorry you disagree.

@ Brian Dey, I offered you "proof" that Walker is a liar. You are entitled to your version of the true meaning of what you see and hear. Walkers recall will be as sweet for the majority today as his win was for you last November. But don't worry. I don't think the new majority is coming after you to single you out for a pay cut. And you can still get your health insurance where you get it now, just like public workers should have the right to purchase their insurance where they choose. The mother of all health care plans in this country is cash. Lots of it. Without cash we are all subject to lose everything with one major illness. Insurance or not. Kochs would be proud of you. You have learned well like good Hitler youth.

@keithbest-- if he did such a great job in Milwaukee County why did he not carry it in the Gov election? Maybe because they caught onto his lies & bullying tactics? I was one who initially voted for him as County Exec but never voted for him again once I saw what he was all about. Obviously I wasn't the only one to see through his charade.

"if he did such a great job in Milwaukee County why did he not carry it in the Gov election?"

I'm going to guess that it had more to do with the fact that the Mayor of Milwaukee was running against him than his performance as Milwaukee County Executive...

"I'm going to guess that it had more to do with the fact that the Mayor of Milwaukee was running against him than his performance as Milwaukee County Executive..."
That's all you can do is guess. But it speaks volumes when you can't carry your own county. They lived under both & chose who they thought was best & it wasn't Walker for a reason.

It speaks volumes if one cannot carry their own county when running against an outsider. That obviously wasn't the case with Walker and Barrett. Losing to another guy from the same county isn't necessarily a bad thing...

Really? Even though that county has the majority of the states voters? Interesting how you can justify it not being a bad thing?

Milwaukee county had the majority of the state voters? Really?

In Milwaukee county, Barret had 209,932 votes, Walker had 128,612, for a total of 338,544 votes. Walker and Barret both had over 1 million votes cast for each of them statewide in the election (1,128,941 for Walker, 1,004,303 for Barrett). By my math, Milwaukee county had only about 16% of the total votes in the state...

Michael Schiwster: Keith is a Waukesha Republican Party operative. He is simply regurgitating the party line for your enjoyment. No original thoughts are permitted by the GOP machine.

We will be going door to door at sometime, if we need to. But, I doubt that will be the case with the support we see. People just are running to us in droves. We can hardly keep up. This is much more efficient and effective. Works awesome.

Much better support in St.Croix County than last time. Especially Hudson

The union goons/stooges/thugs would rather sit in front of Pick N Save on the sidewalk that actually go door to door

Get your rethug blinders off & quit stalking the parking lots. They're walking through my neighborhood & knocking on doors. It's a good way to find out who your neighbors are.

Hate to burst your bubble again, Hudson. Setting up recall spots in public spaces is much more efficient. We public workers like efficiency. No cowardice involved. Why? You want to threaten us with the Castle Doctrine?

It's nice that even the Journal can admit that implementing Walker's changes can bring long term stability to MPS...

"As has been true in every school district and for other public employees, these steps are highly unpopular among the employees. But they do change the financial forecast for MPS to one of stability for the next several years and greatly reduce what had become an ominous long-term, unfunded obligation to retirees."

IT'S NOT A NEWS ARTICLE, FOLKS! It's an OP-ED from WPRI mouthpiece Alan J. Borsuk. Please, people, learn the difference between NEWS and OPINION.

See http://www.wpri.org/WIInterest/Vol19No1/Borsuk19.1.html for more info.

I'm in agreement with you on that Matthew. No reason to stay if the union thugs get their way. I'm more than happy to watch this state implode from somewhere much warmer.

Hudson Resident: By all means, go Galt. I'll help you pack.

MatthewTosa: What are you trying to say? Do I hear a dog whistle???

Please do. Need help packing?

MatthewTosa: Please Go Galt! I'll help you pack!

I am not a Public employee and am on vacation. That I would not have ever had if it wasn't for the unions years back. Thank you union people. And Public employees don't do as you say. The ones I know are a vital source to the people of this great state.

I'll second that!! God Bless Walker for doing what we elected him to do!

Yes, Dirk! Great Idea! He is doing exactly what we need in the state of WI!!!!!

Dirk: The way things are going for him, he'll be able to run in 2012 since he'll be out of a job here in Wisconsin. By all means, have him run! He's already a laughing stock, one more clown in the GOP Clown Posse Candiate Parade would be fabulous!

YES! YES! NO MORE NEW TAXES!!

California is the number one bankrupt state due primarily to public employee unions and illegal immigration. Wisconsin to move into first place ?

MatthewTosa: There's that dog whistle again! What EXACTLY are you saying?

Yes, Teachers YOU need to set a better example -- quit your protesting and get back to your job of teaching our children!!

Yes, we can't have actual people exercising their 1st Amendment rights!!! The HORROR! What kind of example is that setting for our children?

Oh, I thought it was death threats, pouring beer on politicians and protesting outside someones home. Sorry that's what I've seen as well as many students.

@ All right, Bankers have this country on the brink of financial collapse and it is with the support of both parties. Will Walker win the recall election? And yes, recall is lawful sweet democracy in action. You call that person discontent, deceived and tee'd off. And I think you are correct . We are about to do a 180. The recall will be Wisconsins first real crack at turning the clock back to a republican party that valued education and the responsibility to ensure that business participated in the expense of government. Where social obligations were met with a closer focus on we the people.
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=25842#axzz1eMTl34uL

Michael Schwister- It's not only bankers, it's your unions! The entire deficit, outstanding loans and a solvent financial future were accomplished by a college dropout by making public workers do what the other 85% have been doing for quite some time. Not to mention he did it without laying off thousands of public workers, raising our taxes, and not eliminating collective bargaining. Hopefully, the 85% sees through the greedy union thugs ploy to turn this state back to the days of political arm-twisting for union gain. It is the educators that don't value education, with most districts budgets exceeding 80-85% for salaries and benefits. Doesn't leave much for the kids now does it?

@ Paul, Wish they had a like button for your posts.

What was Paul saying about name calling and means spirited BS?

It's nice that you at least acknowledge that the death threats are 'uncalled for'...

So it's not about non violent protests? Gotcha.

Never heard of death threats? The one's against the Governor, his wife, his kids? There are more than the public will ever know about, just like Obama.

They refer to someone making a joke on FaceBook. It was found to not have any real threat to it. Gotta dig deep & take what you can get when trying to discredit the opponent. Speaking of, did the pizza man get out of the GOP race yet? Wasn't he considered their best shot at Obama? I laugh to think they feel Newt is a viable candiate.

Apparently, it's a bit more than a single joke on Facebook.

Here's an article about a woman charged with with two felony counts and two misdemeanor counts for allegedly making email threats against Wisconsin lawmakers...

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/119023079.html

CowDung: It's not an ARTICLE, it's an OP-ED. And an Op-Ed from a WPRI mouthpiece. Sorry if I don't believe what he says.

Doesn't change the facts of what happened. Is this one better?

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/119037014.html

Or maybe this one:

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/crime_and_courts/article_478a9b28-5be6-11e0-83ae-001cc4c002e0.html

Still won't accept it?

How about this one?
http://lacrossetribune.com/news/statebudget/article_9379ca56-5ce3-11e0-886f-001cc4c03286.html

I can link more if you still are in denial...

Cow Dung: Mea culpa, I responded to the wrong thread. Sorry about that. I retract the whole Op-ed vs article thing.

FYI, most threats were made against Democratic state senators, not against Governor Walker or Republican legislators.

"Authorities have investigated 89 threat cases against lawmakers of both parties, Gov. Scott Walker and others after the governor introduced his controversial anti-collective bargaining bill in February and Democratic senators fled the state to avoid voting on it, according to Department of Justice records . . . .

The records cover 78 closed cases reviewed by the agency’s Division of Criminal Investigation between Feb. 19 and March 25 . . . .

Not included in the 128 pages of documents were records of 11 investigations that are still under way. . . .

The 78 cases were closed after agents determined that no further investigation was needed, the threats of violence were unlikely to be carried out or the perpetrator could not be identified. . . .

The 78 closed cases involve:
• 15 threats against Walker.
• 30 threats targeting Democratic senators.
• 12 threats against Republican senators and state representatives, including a one-line email sent to all 56 GOP Assembly members.
• 21 threats targeting Capitol protesters, police, the Tea Party, Madison Mayor Dave Cieslewicz, Dane County Board Chairman Scott McDonell and others."

Read more: http://host.madison.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/more-than-threats-made-against-walker-lawmakers-and-others-records/article_884e3352-7cf4-11e0-98ed-001cc4c03286.html#ixzz1fOq95UvB

Sounds to me like it was written by the 1% to slam the lower to middle class blue collar worker!

Actually, it was ascribed to a Democrat but there is no provenience to indicate that it was actually written by a Democrat. In fact, it was likely written by one of Truman's political adversaries of the day. Look at the image here: http://bit.ly/uCFoea

The opening paragraph states: "Mr. Truman's St. Paul, Minn., pie-for-everybody speech last night reminded us that, at the tail-end of the recent session of Congress, Representative Clarence J. Brown (R-Ohio) jammed into the Congressional Record the following poem, describing it's author only as "a prominent Democrat of the State of Georgia"

Now I wasn't alive in 1949 but I suspect that people at that time regarded with deep suspicion the idea that this was penned by a Democrat and "jammed into the Congressional record" by a Republican.

Funny how things never change. Republicans lying about Democrats. It's as American as apple pie!

stosh and Phil, is it is a simple poem that rings of truth.
What in the poem is not true?
Spin it anyway you wish, try to change the facts of history but the truth is you do not know who wrote it and the best information is that it was a democrat. You have no fact to disprove that and it is disgusting to call a dead man who can not defend himself a lier.
Phil your opinion that it was written by one some other than a democrat is just that your opinion that runs contrary to the Congressional record. We all have opinions and butts. Somehow you think yours is special.
And stosh, don't ever forget it is that 1% that pays the lions share of the taxes and employes the masses.
stosh, If you feel that you are somehow disadvantaged by being part of the lower middle class or blue collar worker become a teacher or some state employee. You can be sheltered by civil service laws and union thugs and screw the hard working tax payers of WI and the rest of America.
Clinton, a democrat " I did not have sex with that woman". Yeah democrats don't lie.
Monica is a typical democrat who did for Clinton what you people do for the union.

Yeah, because when someone makes up a lie all they have to say is, "Disprove it." & they feel that's all the credibility they need. Just ask pizza king.

Robert W Farkas: Just because it "rings true" for you, doesn't mean it does for me. That's your OPINION. The FACTS are that it was submitted to the Congressional Record by a Republican of the day who merely ascribed it, without reference, to a Georgia Democrat. Was he lying? Who knows. But we certainly know that HE was a Republican and HE was responsible for bringing it to light.

The rest of your screed is the usual GOP logical fallacy / straw man baloney so I'll just ignore that.

So true, so true.

Phil, you keep referring to all the comments as being Republican. Where do you get that from? Do assume anyone who disagrees with you or points out your short comings and limited insight is a Republican. Why?

Robert W Farkas: For the same reason you assume I'm a Democrat. Sauce for the goose and all...

Phil, yes I did make that assumption and I apologies for having such a low opinion of you. Further I assumed you are in favor of the Gov. Walker recall and the behavior of the union thugs. Again not very flattering.
I do support Gov. Walker as does most of the State regardless of political belief because he is a man of his word and gets things done.
Have a nice day.

Tell that to the 4,000 teachers who were either laid off or "non-renewed" under Walker's budget. Another BigLie(tm) from the TeaOP! (http://bit.ly/s5Xl4Y)

Thanks Phil for that interesting bit of Liberal Spin. But anyone who works with numbers knows you must go deeper than the groos numbers to understand the true facts. Can you tell me what districts those occurred in? There were a number of districts that did not implement the Act 10 changes and therefore had to make reductions (MPS for example). Some unions would rather stick it to their members than actually save jobs.

Phil Scarr= Another democrat lie. Politico and the MJS have rated that false so again, it is you whining little dweebs of the selfish variety that are again lying.

Brian: If you click on the link I included, you'll see my refutation of that PolitiFact story. Of course, YMMV.

I like this one! http://bit.ly/vNSvef

Phil Scarr- Your article isa total reach and your analysis flawed. As someone who has intimate knowledge of the workings of at least one school district, one of the largest in the state, you can spin the numbers anyway you want for negative effect, until you count the new hires, and according to the Dept. of Public Instruction, statewide their was a net gain of 1,200 teachers. What your analysis and WEAC did was not count new hires, transfers or promotions. So I would give yours and WEAC's a big "Pants on Fire" as well.

Phil:

A non-renewal is not necessarily involuntary and should not be counted the same as a layoff. If a teacher chooses to leave one district for another or decide to quite teaching in the district for one reason for another, it would result in a non-renewal...

So, you don't believe any of the non-renewals or retirements are a direct result in Walker's budget cuts?

A direct result of Walker's budget cuts? No.

Then I would have to say you need to take your "support walker" blinders off. I know of several who did & said it was because of the uncertainty of the affects of his budget cuts. Shame, I wasn't thinking you were so narrow minded. It was also reported in the media as a reason for the higher retirement rates. Interesting you should think that way.

More of an indirect result?

Retirement because of their uncertainty about budget cuts would be an indirect result. The lies and anti-Walker propaganda that was going around could make anyone uncertain about their future...

I would argue that many teaching jobs were saved or created as a direct result of Walker's budget repair bill...

At least in Racine, without Act 10, there would have bee many layoffs of teachers. Instead there was actually a net gain. Act 10 closed an $18 million shortfall in to $19 million in savings and ther is an actual net gain of teaching positions of 23. The Milwaukee situation was self inflicted by the school board and unions, so I would be comfortable saying that Walker is not directly responsible for any layoffs and because of Act 10, there is a lot of data that suggests that many districts are in far better shape.

@Phil Scarr -

Your analysis ignores pertinent data and therefor results in an erroneous conclusion.

Nice try at spinning the facts to suit your personally desired outcome, but most of us here are only actually interested in hard FACTS – not spin!

@Phil Scarr -

Another thing your analysis fails to mention - if teachers retired or non-renewed their contracts either directly or indirectly because of Walker's budget, doesn't it prove that those teachers weren’t really “all about the children,” as the unions claim all of their members to be?

Seems that many teachers, and especially those who allowed Walker's budget to dictate their decision to not teach, are selfish and could care less about the children. Go figure, eh?

James R Hoffa: "Your analysis ignores pertinent data..." Such as?

"...doesn't it prove that those teachers weren’t really “all about the children,” as the unions claim all of their members to be?" Logical fallacy.

A non-renewal is a districts decision to not bring back a teacher who is in the probationary period. That is a firing. If I quit, its not called a non-renewal. That is fact, not stupidity at work. Know your facts. As for the teachers retiring and not teaching...not loving kids? That is the dumbest 8th grade BS argument I hear way too often. Where do you rate your family, your job, and the rest of the the things in your life? Why do you ask the teachers to love their job more than their families? Why should they love your kids more than their families? Quit being losers.

What do they call it when a teacher chooses to not renew their contract and return for another year?

If a non-renewal is indeed a decision by the school to not bring a teacher back after the probationary period, it is probably more of a performance issue than a budgeting issue.

@Cowdung "What do they call it when a teacher chooses to not renew their contract and return for another year?

If a non-renewal is indeed a decision by the school to not bring a teacher back after the probationary period, it is probably more of a performance issue than a budgeting issue."

When a teacher doesnt renew their contract that is called quitting, resigning, retiring, etc. Depends on the circumstances. As for a non-renewal by a district, it can be done for many reasons. I would not subscribe to the assumption that it occurs because they were a bad teacher, as that is not a fact and just an assumption. It is one of many reasons that a district can use, but definitely not the only one.

But then your guess is no more credible than the next guy's. Opinions are like ___holes; eveyone has one.

Hey, Dean... Why don't you just ask us? We're all volunteers. Sorry if that doesn't meet with your wishes.

That's an OP-ED, not NEWS. And it's an OpEd from WPRI mouthpiece Alan J. Borsuk at that.

See http://www.wpri.org/WIInterest/Vol19No1/Borsuk19.1.html for more info.

Ah, yes, the great MacIver News Service, owned and operated by the Koch brothers and the John Birch Society. Is that the best you can do?

It's better than the lies you've been spewing, Linda...

Sounds like Linda has 1st hand information about how they are going to weed out the duplicate signatures. Also must be a snitch for the Koch brothers and JB Society, as she has insider information that they own MacIver News Service. Guess if I would have posted from the Shepherd Express that would have been a more legitimate news source.

Kids, WPRI and MacIver are NOT NEWS SOURCES, any more that DailyKos or ThinkProgress are news services.

@Linda Motley -

The article summarizes the factual situation as it exists and directly quotes from GAB officials. What about it is so 'influenced' per say? And please be specific.

James R Hoffa: Very simply. The MacIver Institute is not a news service, despite their moniker. Would you trust the DailyKos News Service to report the news accurately? Doubtful. My main concern is not what they say, but what they DON'T say. What parts of the interview were NOT reported?

They are not The New York Times. They're not even The Washington Times.

Good media source, bad media source... Maybe in your eyes they are not a "news service" but they provide me with many resources to read further. In many cases linking me directly to the legislation that resulted in the topic I was interested in. This is much more than many "legitimate news service" provides.

@Phil Scarr & Linda Motley... So, you don't like the information and link that mau provided, then please provide an alternative information source that specifically contra-indicates the information provided.
If there is no carefully designed procedure to screen for duplicate names, and/or people signing others names, the entire recall effort will have a giant dark shadow of doubt cast upon it.

Dirk: So facilitating voter registration for the homeless is "the parasitic democratic fix" now?

First it was smokes for votes. Then it was BBQ for votes. Now, it's room & board for votes!

What dirty trick will the liberals come up with next?

Oh yeah, it’s bus people in from out of state and provide them with residency for just long enough to qualify them to be able to vote in a recall if one is triggered. The plan has already been discussed at many local Democratic recall-committee meetings!

Liberalism is Cool: So registering the homeless is a "scam" in your world. Got it.

Sorry, that's 300,000, not 300,00.

That's right DicksDeli, when you have nothing of substance to say, just start in with the name calling and lame attempts at insult. It's people like you that the "decent people of Wisconsin" are working so hard to get out of our government. How much are you being paid to embarrass yourself like this?

"When you have nothing of substance to say, just start in with the name calling and lame attempts at insult."

Before putting people down for name calling, you probably should reread some of your previous posts, Linda.

Dicks Deli: "Who are these 300,000 slugs" you ask? They're the voters who are going to drop-kick Walker out of the Governor's mansion. Nice of you to ask.

Who is going to run against Walker? Tax and spend David Obey? Bull Dyke Baldwin? Two time loser Feingold?

"In the previous recalls, there were many petitioners that were from out of state."
Yes, from Texas; paid to get signatures to recall the Democrat Senators.

If that truly happened, then I hope that those responsible were charged, tried and convicted...

You make assumptions you know nothing about. Typical of your kind.

Walker: Speaking of assumptions, just what "kind" am I. I assume that by "assumption" you mean my implicit assertion that "many of the petition-mongers" are not tax-paying WI citizens. I know plenty about it, busted one myself.

Dicks Deli: How do you know that "many of the petition-mongers" are not taxpayers? Can you provide a news source for that assertion? Or are you just pulling it out of thin air? I'm a "petition-monger," and I pay a LOT of taxes in WI (very likely quite a bit more than you).

And what "gaping hole" would that be? The $3 billion dollar pants-on-fire lie Walker got caught telling? (http://bit.ly/oYt8BU).

Finally, nobody's paying ME to collect signatures. Like the dozens of recall signature collectors I know, it's a labor of love.

In the previous recalls, there were many petitioners that were from out of state. Why is it so out of line to assume that this recall drive is any different and many of the 'petition mongers' are once again not Wisconsin taxpayers?

@robert -

You may want to study up on the whole 'Castle Doctrine law,' as it doesn't really work in the manner in which you're abdicating here. And by using it as a false premise in attempting to make the point that you did, you're just making yourself sound like a fool.

Try again.

James,

You have to understand that robert thought the additional police presence put in place when he and the rest of those brave picketers went into Walker's neighborhood was there to make sure he was safe. He also thought he was wandering deep into enemy territory by staking out a spot to get recall petition signatures at the Walgreens on Farwell and Brady and tempting fate by keeping his foot an inch away from the line the manager politely told him not to cross (no doubt when no one was looking, he daringly slipped his toe over that line for a moment and then quickly moved it back across the DMZ into safety). So as you can see, safety coupled with avoiding situations that might actually result in a seriously unfriendly confrontation are big issues with him.

So factor in the middle he has lost, which is who put him over in the first election, & the fact he has lost the police & firefighter votes. Not to mention the ones who didn't vote but will now that they see his agenda is no longer hidden & the % of his own party he has pissed off. It will make any candidate a close race against him even if it's an AWD (Anybody But Walker) candidate.No matter what it will be close.

Unfortunately for the GOP we don't count victory by counties won. Are counties akin to pre-1832 Reform Act British "rotten boroughs" do you suppose? (http://bit.ly/6kO8MY). I digress. We count victory but by the votes of voters. So winning 82% of the counties is, in the end, meaningless here.

So Walker won by a 7% margin, that means that we only need a 4% swing in the vote to shift victory to the Democrats. Personally, I like those odds.

@Phil -

And what Democrat currently represents a better option in your opinion than Walker?

I should have known that you're one of those guys that doesn't even consider third party or independent candidates. You're nothing but a slave of the two party duopoly!

JRH: So wait... You ask me a perfectly reasonable question: "And what Democrat currently represents a better option in your opinion than Walker?"

And then you respond to yourself as if I'd answered you: "I should have known that you're one of those guys that doesn't even consider third party or independent candidates. You're nothing but a slave of the two party duopoly!"

You want to wait for my answer BEFORE you acuse me of a belief in something that I have not expressed. Logical fallacy much???

Care to try again? Or are you happy enough with the voice in your head answering for me?

@Phil Scarr -

"So Walker won by a 7% margin, that means that we only need a 4% swing in the vote to shift victory to the Democrats. Personally, I like those odds."

Yeah, it sure looks like you were backing a third party or independent candidate all right! Although, the only party/candidate I see mentioned in your statement is “Democrats.” How peculiar, isn’t it?

JRH: "Although, the only party/candidate I see mentioned in your statement is “Democrats.” How peculiar, isn’t it?" Not really. The Democrats are the only ones operating an opposition to Walker right now. If another party comes along during the recall election, I'll evaluate their platform and vote accordingly.

@Phil Scarr -

So then, apparently, you're willing to support a recall wherein no viable alternative option has yet to surface, correct? What good does this do for the state other than cost taxpayers a significant amount of time and money – especially during a time when the state is a little short on both?

After all, in a previous comment on this board, you stated:

“Who is going to run against Walker? Tax and spend David Obey? Bull Dyke Baldwin? Two time loser Feingold?”

@Walker and Phil Scarr
Can you please point where Walker has hurt the state? I am curious where your hatred is stemming from.

Also

Should we have reorganized our state like IL? Or do you have a better way to deal the budget deficits?

Wow, the ultimate coward. Hiding behind MY name. Pathetic.

@Phil Scarr -

At least you can admit to your short-comings - "paid Obama agitator and a full time union stooge." Very commendable of you. However, you do realize that knowing this should/will effect how others view your comments now and in the future forward here on Patch, don’t you? If not, I'm just saying that it might be best to adjust your expectations now as opposed to later!

BTW - How much does Obama pay you anyway?

JRH: I think I can manage quite well without your concern trolling, thanks. My ability to articulate my beliefs and my positions won't be hindered by one little person hiding behind MY name. Frankly, I take it as quite the complement that the only way someone out there feels they can discredit me is to BECOME me.

Think about that for a minute. Someone so incapable of expressing a coherent opinion of their own in opposition to what I've written here must inhabit MY identity to try and embarrass me. It's awesome! I'm quite flattered, actually, even if it is kind of sad that they don't have any original ideas of their own.

Currently: ABW!

And there is no correlation with the fact that most of these cities were manufacturing centers and the citizens lost their jobs to third world countries? Profits above all else. You can keep your version of prosperity and kiss the boots or whatever else you may want to kiss,of the plutocrats of the world. Ever notice who wins regardless of who is in office? Money may not buy love but it certainly buys governments.

Profits above all else? You do realize that if companies cannot/do not make profits, they do not stay in business and cannot provide any jobs...

Meaningless. Look at a list of the poorest states, they've had lots of Republican governors. Plus I don't even know how accurate this list is. For example, Carl Zeidler, a Republican, was mayor of Milwaukee from 1940-42.

Zeidler actually ran as a non-partisan independent...

CowDug - True it was a non-partisan election, but Carl Zeidler was a Republican. Milwaukee mayoral elections have been "non-partisan" ever since the Republicans and Democrats in Wisconsin joined forces back in 1912 to change the election from partisan to non-partisan so they could join forces and run fusion candidates against the Socialist Party candidates and officeholders that had won the previous election. It worked for awhile, but the Socialists were able to still elect Dan Hoan and Frank Zeidler (Carl's brother) the latter who held office until 1960. Many of the best things about Milwaukee (public lake front, expansive park system, and what was once a reputation for clean streets, clean government, and fiscal responsibilty) can be traced back to their administrations.

If my boss took the financial risks necessary to start the company, then doesn't he deserve to reap the benefits of any profits made?

If I feel that the compensation that I agreed to work for is unfair, I am free to find other employment or start my own business.

@ cowdung If I feel that the compensation that I agreed to work for is unfair, I am free to find other employment or start my own business. Would that statement also apply to someone that wanted to work in a union shop and didn't want to be in a union? And yes, he's entitled to make huge profits but also to pay taxes to help support government. Not suck even more tax gifts out of our infrastructure.

Yes, if a guy wanted to work in a union shop but didn't want to join the union, they are free to choose other places of employment. I also support the workers' right to form a union if they work in a non-union shop and desire to be part of a union.

What 'tax gifts' are you complaining about? Just like any other taxpayer, if a business is entitled to deductions or tax credits, then they should be allowed to take them. If the tax system allows businesses to not pay as much in taxes as you would like them to, then perhaps the tax system needs to be reformed.

Personally, I think that tax incentives are a great way to encourage businesses to make investments that benefit society as a whole--like hiring workers in this state instead of somewhere else, installing solar panels or moving to alternative energy sources that reduce pollution or waste...

If a person can get a thousands of dollar tax credit for buying a hybrid vehicle, why shouldn't a corporation get millions of dollars in tax credits for buying a fleet of hybrid vehicles?

@ Cowdung, Where is the like button for your last post.

Bob, I don't have an ego to feed and I couldn't get away from work fast enough. I made a choice young to work union after working non-union doing the same work for years.I
t was a no brainer. Higher wages. a pension which I paid for, health insurance I paid for, an apprenticeship program we paid for, and a labor management partnership that we contributed to. We paid forward so to speak. Much like teachers did until recently. Labor benefitted from a good middle class wage package and management benefitted with a productive trained workforce. And most owners are well off so living wages right here in America didn't kill the business.

So basically what you're saying is you're not willing the take the risk others have to start a business of your own, even if it would allow you to attempt to prove that businesses don't have to be run in the fashion you find so objectionable.

I guess you've really got not much to complain about then - or at the very least, no realistic expectation that your complaints should be taken to heart.

Bob What risk is there in inheritense, or opening company A bankrupcy, Company B, then bankrupcy, then company C then bankrupcy. We are not talking multinational companies .And I ran the field profitably for fifteen years one place and few more at another place before I had to pull the pin.

What risk is there? Even assuming everyone who starts a business uses an inheritance (most I know who did, didn't, but some did), the risk is losing the money you put into it. Some I've known have gone on to be successful, some haven't, but all have made sacrifices that someone, like yourself apparently, who opts for the safety (for as long at is lasts) of a union job probably doesn't understand.

it's not a matter of saying "Geez, I'm not making enough money" or "looks like I'm not gonna be able to pay this month's bills" and the G-d of Forestalled Insolvency reaches down from the heavens above and grants you a bankruptcy.

What "field" did you run, and why did you have to pull the plug? If you were good enough to run whatever "field" you supposedly ran, why not take that experience, start your own business, and help not only yourself but all those you could have employed utilizing the expertise you gained by running that "field" profitably. Or are you all about getting what you can, and then getting out when the getting is good? Why so selfish, Michael?

@ Bob,
If you would have invited me over for a Huber with Lyle I would have given you my story.Why aren'y you working? LoL. Can't a guy work for forty some years, buy a house and grow a family, pay taxes and dues and take care of obligations and move on do a reasonable retirement? It's a good thing that we can carry now because I would have to shoot the first guy that made me go back. I retired because I was used up. Multiple back injuries from some tough work. I know your side doesn't like to negotiate especially with unions. I had to negotiate between forty and as many as a hundred rank and file trades people on a daily basis. Take the Walker approach to that crowd and see what happens. And why aren'y you still working

I run my own business, Michael. I took the risk (for a second time, actually), made my own opportunities and I provide work for others in the process. No inheritance involved, btw.

I guess in a way I'm like those folks you worked for when you were working. You know, the ones that, despite your distaste for the way they ran their businesses, still managed to provide a job for you despite doing everything the wrong way - according to you. Without people like that who take the risk, start the businesses and run them long enough for you to be employed somewhere for 15 years, not only would you not have had your proud union membership to point to, you wouldn't have had a job.

Is Huber beer Union made?

I'd call Gladys and ask if she knows, but since her devastating loss to Sandy Pasch, she's made herself scarce. A trend amongst losers that apparently continued as the primary gave way to the special election itself.

One of us is full of it. I'll keep my version thank you.

Would that be like sucking Koch?

It's not spin, Michael, it's just a solid argument. You complained about your employers use of their cars and credit cards, completely missing the irony of the fact that without those folks running that business, you wouldn't have had a job. You claim there's very little risk in business, yet you're reluctant to start one yourself (claim you don't have the "ego") and it's also apparent you have little or no actual understanding of what it takes to start and run a business. You dismiss any risk as being only the possible loss of an inheritance or the ability to declare bankruptcy on a whim and move on as if nothing has happened.

If you expose your own Achilles heel in the process of trying to make points that don't have any basis in reality, it's only natural to expect it to be used to counter the points you're trying to make.

@ Bob, When my family and I can write off our expenses in the same manner as business I would not have an objection. I never worried about putting bread on the table because I know that business needs labor. Risk is only money and if money is important to you then you are at risk of losing money. But you can start over if you wish. And it really is that simple Bob if you have the drive to make money. I wonder who is lacking a basis of reality.

Michael, if someone didn't take that risk, there would be no need for your labor. You don't even seem to recognize that fairly simple reality, so the fact that you're unwilling to take that risk yourself (which you again minimize - easy enough to do when it's someone else's money), while at the same time think you should be afforded the same benefits as someone who is, isn't particularly surprising. As for your argument that "it's only money", if it's so insignificant that you dismiss it in that fashion when it's someone else's to risk, you shouldn't even care whether or not someone gets to write off something you don't. But you do.

All in all, you have a very unrealistic set of expectations, couples with a very unrealistic understanding of how business operates and of how you happened to have a job in the first place.

The reason this country has been so successful is that we do indeed encourage people to start businesses. What separates the US from other countries is that we encourage people to start businesses via government incentives(favorable taxes, SBA, etc) and we also allow people to fail without necessarily going to the poor house or debtor prisons. We must have those tax programs in place to encourage new business otherwise new businesses(aka job creation) will dry up. Recognize that 70+% of new jobs come from small, young businesses in this country. So everyone screaming about government handout this and that to businesses are barking up the wrong tree(but will say that I have a problem with the handouts to the financial industry).

And, the other thing that always amazes me about employees b*tching about this perk and that perk that the company owner has: try to look below the surface of that success. How many years did the owner go without a salary or a very small one? How many years did they go w/o vacations while starting that business. How many failures did that owner have in the past? How many broken failures are out there that never reached success? We encourage business in this country by reducing the risk of starting a new business. Don't kill the golden goose simply because you jealous of the success of company owners.

wrong

That sums it up! They are unrealistic and should stand in a corner and think about the harm they are doing to this State.

Michael, you had a job because that business existed, regardless of who it was who owned it when you came on board. Somebody, sometime, somewhere took a risk to start that business, and the same would go for any other business that may have hired you at the time. I'm sorry you resent the fact that the guy who started the business did well enough that it prospered, allowing a second generation to take over and, ultimately, provide you with a job, but that's sometimes the way things turn out when a business is successful.

All the other nonsense and talking points you've thrown in there that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic are nothing more than a distraction to try to draw attention away from your complete lack of understanding of how and, especially, why businesses that provide jobs for guys like you come to exist.

Nobody's asking you to kiss anyone's behind. Similarly, no one is particularly interested in kissing yours just because you managed to hold a union job for 15 years.

Businesses don't exist to provide you with work. They exist to provide goods or services that provide a return on the investment that's "risked" by their owners and investors. You, as an employee, are a cost of doing business and that's the extent of your relationship with an employer. If that's not suitable, you find another line of employment or you create your own opportunity. You may not like it, but that's the way it is.

Michael:

Nobody is trying to belittle or blame public workers or teachers for anything. The current changes to collective bargaining reflect the changes that have hit those in the private sector. As those in the private sector find themselves contributing more to healthcare costs, and dealing with pay freezes, pay cuts and/or layoffs, it seems reasonable that we trim back a bit on the taxpayer funded compensation packages that have been largely unaffected by the recent economic situation.

@ Bob, I think you misinterpret I don't understand how it works for I don't give a hoot. Almost forty years union and the last eighteen years in the office so to speak. Employer Rep on the Training committee. You think highly of your accomplishments and I bet you worked your ass off. But if your wife needs a new house, or your business needs more space, someone like me will perform the task. Many tradesmen have their own customers outside of work. No Bob, I didn't need someone to open his shop to take risk for me. It was simply the easier way to keep active in things I enjoyed while putting food on the table and preparing for retirement.The door was open when I got there. I would have had to work for myself if there were no business's. You just don't care to include my talking points with your perception of what business is . You revere it I don't. Seems to me the best working environment is mutually beneficial with labor and management. Whether its union or not. When one side or the other becomes disrespectful the work environment becomes toxic. What I see in the libertarian agenda, which walker is part of, is complete disrespect for labor. As long as I'm being treated as an equal I am a happy camper. I want the same attention paid to citizens and their social programs as we pay business in business incentives and tax advantages. As a taxpayer, is that asking too much?

Michael I don't revere business, I accept it for what it is. I understand how and why it functions and whether you or I like it is immaterial. When you work for someone else, you're essentially a cost of doing business. In exchange for the hours you put in or tasks you fulfill, you receive compensation. That's the extent of the relationship.

When I've worked for people I didn't particularly care for for whatever reason, I had some choices. I could do my job and just deal with it. I could look for a job somewhere else. Or I could go out on my own. At various times in my life I've done all of those. I didn't expect the guy who signed my paycheck to change his attitude or, frankly, anything about the way he did business because I wanted him to. The reason for that is, regardless of what I may think, in terms of the employee/employer relationship, I'm not his or her equal. I'm their subordinate. Just as you were when you worked for someone else.

If an employer treats everyone like crap (and I know there are folks like that out there, trust me, I've worked for a few), eventually the only people they end up with are people who absolutely can't get work elsewhere and whose work is essentially crap.

You work, you are compensated for your work. That's it, period. You can try to find someone who treats you with respect if that's high on your list of important work-related issues, but it's not a requirement of the employee/employer relationship.

"No Bob, I didn't need someone to open his shop to take risk for me. It was simply the easier way to keep active in things I enjoyed while putting food on the table and preparing for retirement.The door was open when I got there. I would have had to work for myself if there were no business's.?

************************

So you elected to go with what was the easier, less risky route for you, which resulted in you subordinating yourself to to a guy with an English degree who inherited the business. You even admit you could have gone out on your own, but you chose not to do so.

So what exactly was your complaint again?

you'll have to show me where you found the nipples. Did it taste like weekends or vacations?

I'm guessing that JB was talking about the great machine that funnels tax money through the public unions, into the coffers of the Democratic party and the politicians for which they buy elections. In the simpest of terms, the country is beholden to the Union bosses and their money...

@Nick: USA in decline? I beg to differ. Who is the largest manufacturer in the world? Hint: it's not China. Where are 18 of the top 20 universities in the world located? The world changes and no country is better at handling change than the US. Jobs will change and individuals will be hurt by this change. Should we protect typewriter manufacturing jobs or let the market decide? Hmmm, I think I'll pick the market. If you want to control what we manufacture and who gets the jobs then look no further than Japan for your answer on what that will look like. Japan rose quickly through the 60-80s and then their government decided what technologies would be developed. Their government made the wrong bets. The US allowed the market to decide what won and lost. And the US prevailed. US manufacturing has actually grown in the last decade whereas Japan has declined. I believe China is following a similar roadmap as Japan. We'll see if it plays out in a similar way. Winners and losers in the future will be decided by their ability to handle change. Those that don't want change(unions) will be ground up and tossed in the dust bin of history. Those that embrace change will profit from it and thrive. Anyone that likes enforced mediocrity(unions) and no cut sports teams(bleeding heart liberals) will be in that dust bin. This isn't your daddy's economy.

@Nick (cont)
Socialism by nature does three things. 1) It creates a ruling class that controls the regulations and wealth. 2) It turns the rest of population into a lower middle class society. 3) Removes the ability and desire to make life changing social climbing changes, because you can be comfortable living off the government.

We see this in Europe. They have instituted national health care, an expansive pension system, easy access to welfare and huge public worker class. Then they breakdown the private sector business with outlandish worker privileges and restrictive regulations that push more and more people either onto the welfare system or public employment. It an attempt to remove risk they then remove failure. If you can’t fail, why change your current way of life. You will be taken care off. The US was great because if you took risk, you could succeed big and if you failed you lived in a gutter. This was the driving force for American to do something. Not all made it big, but you could take care of your family. As we have eliminated failure (with welfare, medicare, social security) people are less likely to take risk, because they are already taken care off. If you are given what you need, then being lazy is easy.

So keep defending you Democrats, Rino Republicans and Unions, they are killing the US because they are the Plutocrats and don’t want to lose power.

@Nick
Cowdung explained it very well. The wealth of the the tax payer was being funneled through the unions and back to the Democrats. I think that the Plutocracy existed between the Unions and Democrats and they created their own wealth generating machine the would get themselves re-elected. We see with the huge funds of money used by the unions in the last elections.
As for the CEO. You are wrong. The CEO's first responsibility is to the success of the company. Without a company, you have no jobs at all.
As for automation, that has been restructuring society since the first caveman rounded a stone to create a wheel. Whether it is the use of water for power, wind for power or electricity for robots; each has eliminated jobs. Yet, society has still found a way to get people jobs. I agree that money has been hoarded, because businesses are unsure what to expect. Obamacare is hanging out there, the Bush tax cuts could be repealed and companies never know where the next stumbling block to their existence will come from. It could be taxes, regulation or simple intimidation.
The constitution of the US was designed to create paralyzation of government. Numerous founding fathers said that government expansion was the greatest destructive force for our republic. Hence they created 3 seperate branches and 2 houses of congress.
If you believe that we have an plutocracy, then the cause is the slow creep of socialism.
(pause)

Yaaaaawwwwwnnnnnnnn............

Nick:

I'm thinking that the reason that you cannot be convinced otherwise is that you aren't interested in hearing any opinions other than those that agree with your own...

@ Nick Poulos, yaaaaawwwwwnnnnnnn............

Actually, the taxpayer funded compensation I spoke of is not all 'deferred'--only a relatively small part of the total compensation package is deferred. Wages and healthcare benefits are pretty direct. Contributions toward the pensions would be the part that is considered to be 'deferred compensation'.

Most of us in the private sector pay 20-30% of our health benefits cost. Having public workers pay 12.5% of theirs doesn't seem at all inhumane...

Politicians can "promise" anything they want, just ask the ones in Greece. And to say that that public workers had nothing to do with this "getting out of hand" is quite a stretch. The government union thugs have been feeding at the trough for long enough. It was time for a more balanced approach and that is what Scott Walker delivered. Go Scott Walker!

Hudson Resident-
I am curious as to what you do and how much you make. I just want to know how bad you have it compared to those union thugs. Every time I check on the public union average total compensation compared to private sector, equally educated, total compensation, it seems to be in line.
http://www.slge.org/vertical/Sites/%7BA260E1DF-5AEE-459D-84C4-876EFE1E4032%7D/uploads/%7B03E820E8-F0F9-472F-98E2-F0AE1166D116%7D.PDF

Make sure that you also consider level of education, which is a major factor. Comparing a HS diploma to a Masters isn't correct, if it were then we might as well get on with comparing our pay with doctors. Speaking of which, I think doctors should be paid what factory workers get paid. Enough with this "I went to school for 8 years" bragging.

Nick, your last sentence indicates to me that you really don't get it...

Yaaaawwwwnnnn.........

Nick's not really interested in you, CD. He's trolling for a few good intellectuals who share his passion for applying lessons learned from literature to today's burning issues. Please allow him to drop his bait in peace and don't scare away potential lunkers. Harris K. Telemacher told him they're not really biting all that well here.

You are right!!!!!!

Supply and demand is a tough way to compensate a public employee, or even a private one for that matter. If you are suggesting that this should be done, how much are you will to pay the teacher in an in-demand area (and I am mostly sure that they are not the ones you think they will be)? If they are hired when there is 1 teacher to 10 jobs, how much do you want to pay them when the supply corrects itself and there is now an adequate supply? Do you just fire them and hire new to correct the pay discrepancy, like putting a contract out to bid? What if you were working in one of those areas and were getting paid a premium and then they fired you? What if you were paying for those teachers? Should you pay anyone next to nothing because there are a large varying degree of quality candidates, and a large quantity of them?

As you have said, I can't argue against such nonsense.

Say What? Seriously, have you ever worked in the private sector? Aside from minimum wage positions, how do you think most compensation packages are arrived at?

In that case, BOB, there is a high unemployment rate, and Wisconsin has one that is growing. I would love to see the compensation be dynamic with that trend. Yeah...about now those bastards making minimum wage should be at about $3.00/hr. That way the job creators could double the number of people working for them. Job creation? Awesome. Lets get it on. Is there a point where the supply overwhelms the demand and the people have to pay to work? Is there a way that we can artificially manipulate this so it is always the case? I know that is what this great nation was founded on.

And, have I ever worked private sector? I do almost everyday. You see, my wages were decreased enough that I needed an additional job. So, now I work a second one that could have been a job for one of the unemployed. I am one of many that are doing so. Can you tell me how that affects the economy? I am unsure as I am such a dumb union thug.

Say What? I have no idea what that particular stream of consciousness word jambalaya was all about, but, seriously, how do you think compensation is arrived at? It's based on supply and demand. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but having worked in the private sector all my life, I can certainly tell you that that's the way it works. Even union jobs with negotiated wages are based on a scale determined by supply and demand, because the end products they produce are subject to those constraints.

Good lord it's like all you folks just dropped in from some other planet. Welcome to the real world. I and a lot of other folks have been living it for years. Apparently you haven't.

Bob, I am sorry that you can't comprehend what I said. As for the supply and demand, wages are set using other factors. To say it is supply and demand only is really an over-generalization, but it also is a way of devaluing the people doing the work, as if to compare them to cost of fuel, grains, the cost of steel, or other goods or supplies. Maybe that is why some employers struggle to keep good employees while others dont. This goes for both public and private sector jobs.

Here is some reading for you if you think it is supply and demand that sets pay and compensation.
http://www.referenceforbusiness.com/small/Di-Eq/Employee-Compensation.html#b

Good lord, Say What? Talk about not understanding. Did you bother reading what you posted a link to? If you did, then you missed the parts about how one determines what to pay for a particular position and all the qualifiers there refer to the basics of supply and demand. What other jobs of a similar nature pay, what going rates are in the area, etc. The rest of it refers to common business practices regarding to how properly identify and structure a particular job type, about how to formulate a job description, what the difference is between hourly, exempt and non-exempt employees, salaried employees, overtime, what constitute benefits, etc, etc, etc. It's business 101.

It's like saying "that's not a bicycle, what it really is is two wheels, a chain, a bottom bracket, a seat, handlebars...etc."

Pay scales are based on supply and demand, and in that supply and demand are qualification and location based variables. You can't pull someone out of a job as a greeter at Walmart and expect them to do the financials for a major corporation. The number of people qualified to be a greeter at Walmart is pretty much infinitesimal. The number of people qualified to be the CFO at GM probably numbers less than a couple hundred. That's supply and demand. As you move up the scale, reputation and experience further narrow the field for certain job types. But it's still a matter of supply and demand.

And, yes I did read it. But it seems that you didn't read the part that said the "supply and demand" items were the others, while the value of the work being done was the first. Even if you have an infinitesimal number of people to do a job, there is a value to that work being done. If not, than wal mart greeter would pay nothing. The second thing that they say is that it should be equitable for the worker and the business, providing a sustainable relationship between labor and employer. Competitive wages does not equal supply and demand as you would have it, it rather reflects the degree to which that business wishes to draw candidates of varying calibre. If you provide a non competitive wage, despite the supply that is available, you cannot hope to attract and sustain a desirable workforce, which inevitably effects your bottom line. Supply and demand should not be the primary, nor the only, driving factor for how much a business pays unless the work that they do can be done without trained workers, as turnover rate is inevitable. Restaurants suffer from this as a matter of what is sustainable, and not what is equitable. If it were equitable for the employee, restaurant work would draw a crowd and sustain those workers, the problem is the low profit margins as well as the varying effectiveness of the business with outside factors affecting sales and profits. I can understand that you would like to summarily say supply and demand, but to do so is dismissive of fact.

So basically what you're saying is that, despite it being supply and demand (because everything you've pointed into there that you claim isn't about supply and demand, actually is), you don't like the term because you find it offensive.

Okay, well call it what you want, but there's absolutely nothing in what you said that doesn't relate to supply and demand. If I'm an employer and I think I'm going to get people to come work for me at a level below what the market's willing to pay for people of that calibre, then I'm not going to get people of that calibre.

Frankly, I have no idea what you find so degrading about the concept of supply and demand, but I do suggest that regardless of what you call it or what elaborate description of the relationship between and employer and an employee, the compensation paid and received is, indeed, set by the supply of eligible employees and the demand for those types of employees. You're not going to get a CFO for what it cost of have someone stand around in a red vest and greet people at Walmart, and you're not going to get the world's greatest pitchman to say "Howdy!" and roll a shopping cart in someone's general direction for greeter wages. Employers with unrealistic expectations are as out of luck as employees with similar expectations. That is :::shudder::: supply and demand.

Lets ditch the horse and more to the topic at hand, how would you set the pay for a teacher using supply and demand? How would you break up the educational staff into manageable pay groups? Would pay for new hires, given changes in supply and demand, effect the pay of those new hires? If so, how would it effect the pay of previous hires?

@Say What
Lets look at private sector teaching position. They are hired on the basis of demand. When the student population at school reaches a certain level, then the demand for more teachers increases. As a school looks for a new teachers, the supply of that teacher will determine their pay. When supply is low, the pay may be higher, when supply is high, the pay may be lower.

As for new hires, they would be paid based on the supply and demand of the schools local area.

Breaking up staff into manageable has nothing to do with pay or hiring. That is a union invention to soak the tax payer.

Previous hires would be paid at whatever compensation the labor market demanded. Yes, that means a new hire could be paid at the same level of an existing employee.

Your ideas about the job market have been warped by years of union misinformation.

Say What?, basically what JB Schmidt said. In essence, you have a private sector model to use for comparison in the private schools that are out there and have been for years. That's your starting point. I know teachers don't like to hear that, because they know very well that most in the private sector schools aren't receiving the kinds of wage/benefit packages they are and would prefer that compensation be based on those who've put in as much time and money achieving the educations they themselves have. But when you have a direct comparison available in the private sector, that's what the market tells you you're worth.

That is one of the problems with shopping centers taking the place of downtowns. The loss of public space. Petitions for recalls, or to get on the ballot, or for any reason are part of the public discourse and it is a loss to us all when this is thwarted by private property rights. Many of these shopping centers market themselves as "town centers" but it is a sanitized version of what use to be.

@MDS
Damn private property rights. How can a person purchase property and then do with it what they want? What kind of country do we live in?

They kicked the idiot out of the parking lot on 2nd St. in Hudson as well. Good for the property owners to stand up to the government union thugs. Hey thugs, how about going door to door to get your signatures? What are you afraid of- work or violence? Or maybe both.....

MDS, maybe after you're done attempting to negate the results of the last election that didn't suit you, you can work on getting changes made to the laws regarding private property rights. Screw everyone else, it's all about you.

Robert - No, I am lamenting the loss of public space. Remember small towns, or neighborhoods where people walked on the public sidewalks? Now we all drive and then park, walk and shop all on private property . There is no space to interact. That is a loss. Like I said, these malls call themselves "town centers" but they are not. They are controlled environments where anything objectionable or controversial can be kept away.

MDS, if you are just reminiscing to an earlier day, fine. A lot has changed and that change is driven by economics in response to what the people desire. There are still communities for which you seem to long. Seek and you shall find, as they say. If you find what you like maybe "you" will be happier there.
I have fond memories of shopping on Mitchell Street where there were bakers, butchers, mens and ladies clothing shops, Sear where the car spotter on the fire escape with the microphone would call out the color, make and model of the vehicle and direct them to a parking spot. etc.
But people were introduced to the Malls and left Mitchell Street to die. Choice. The People spoke with their feet and their money. It was not big business, the any evil brothers or the government, it was the People and their money. It is still the driving force, Big Box Store over Mom and Pop.
The simple fact that people have become so polarized from reality, working as a unit to destroy a legally elected government demonstrates that like the "downtown" changing, the way we interact and communicate has changed also.
Simply wishing to have a conversation on a sidewalk is not enough. You have to get out and find a place to have that conversation outside of your comfort zone. Then just maybe, you may learn something.
So rather than lament, get out of your car and find the town center as it exist now, not in your memory.

Robert - I understand the economics of retail (though the construcion of freeways and other actions by government also contributed). But the movement to malls and big box stores has also had the unintended consequence of inhibiting activities such as the collection of signatures on petitions. Our laws still require the collection of signatures not only for recalls, but to get on the ballot to begin with. Maybe the laws should be changed to also allow the collection of these signatures electronically? Or we can change our zoning regulations to require some type of public space or public access in these new shopping areas. Similar in a way to Wisconsin laws guaranteeing us access to our lakes and streams to boat and fish even though the bodies of water are surrounded by private property. Surely our election process is as important.

Mds, No. Your entire premise is that the government should control access and purpose to and on private property. Socialism at its worst. Further, you are wrong. If a lake is entirely surrounded by private property you do no have access to it. Stream and rivers are at time different matters if they are "navigable water ways". But that is for another day.
The highways and express ways come after the demand for them. Much like the transcontinental railroad came to improve travel conditions and travel time after the pioneers began moving west. Other than for the life and life style of the Indian that was a good thing from which you and many others benefit.
From your own words it appears that your entire focus in life is political activity.
You want to voice your opinion, speak your mind to the public, Go to the park with a soap box and do so. See how many people hand around to listen. Do it this winter out side, How about collecting signatures door to door as it has been done for years. But that is work out in the cold and rain.Then MDS you do not have to invade the private property and bushiness of those who create jobs and afford you a controlled environment market place with competition to keep prices in check.

We are miles apart on this and you are so focus on such a narrow objective I will waste no more time trying to enlighten you or change your way of seeing what is right and what is wrong. Do not ever forget, your rights end where mine begin.

MDS there is no shortage of spots available for people to collect signatures. The change you suggest is completely unnecessary. As regards lakes, that's not universal. But that brings to mind an idea for you. Why don't you rent a canoe, head out the Lake Country and see how many late season fishermen or lakeside homeowners you can get to sign your petition?

Robert and Bob,

We will still get the needed signatures, so don’t worry about that. All I am suggesting is some reasonable accommodation to the new retail environment is made so that petitioners aren’t endangered, for example collecting signatures on busy street corners. Governments have long been able to use eminent domain to create a roadway, or enact laws requiring for example space be set aside for handicap shoppers. A similar space could be set aside for public access. I know you don’t want this for the Walker recall, but someday it may be a group you support that could use this.

That you would suggest that petitioners go door to door (and that has been done) seems strange in conjunction with your concern for private property. You don’t want to be bothered at the mall, but it is OK for me to come to your front door? Especially with the Republican’s new “castle doctrine” I don’t really think that is a good alternative any more either.

MDS, were you concerned about being able to collect signatures at malls prior to this silly recall effort? Did you speak out in favor of changing those laws so that those who canvased to get politicians on the ballot were able to have that same access? Did you take action to attempt to get those laws changed?

As far as going door to door, I'm glad you guys have decided not to do so. After dealing with the numbskulls who came around during the attempt to oust Darling, the last thing I need is some argumentative idiot who doesn't understand the word "no" interrupting my dinner hour. And if it's because you're afraid of getting shot if you do so, all that does is confirm how irrational this whole effort and those who are involved in it really are.

Mayor Barret can add a lane, next to the bicycle lane on the Hoan Bridge, for all you Anti-Walker people to protest and collect signatures.

MDS, Unfortunately you do not get it. You appear to be one of those individuals who assumes others share you method of thinking. It may be an indication of your limitations of education, limited global travel or open mindedness when interacting with others. You may very well be the type of person who is not listening to others, rather waiting to talk.
May I suggest you read Massys (sp) book, The People Puzzle and also the collection The Glory and the Dream. Then come back and share your thoughts.
The use of eminent domain for your purpose is so outlandish and incorrectly applied that it is sad that the thought entered your mind much less you articulated it.
You obviously do not understand the castle doctrine or you would not talk so foolishly as have other here who share your perversion of the facts.
The low hanging fruit has been picked and now your work will begin. I believe in the end you and your ilk will fail in your goal to displace the legally elected Governor.
I collected signatures door to door for a nomination for judge for a friend of mine. I did it that way so I could answer questions and explain his position to prospective signers.
That is the best way for all involved.
You feel you are in danger of what when on the street?
Are you afraid of traffic?
You have no Right to force your way into the Mall or onto store property for political purposes and only the extreme left wing nut jobs would want it made a law that you could do so.
This is it. Enough.

Well then, that must have been YOU! The dude I mentioned was telling you that it was his kid that you solicited. I heard it with my own ears. You asked more than one middle school kid to sign the recall Walker petition. I heard you. You weren't answering questions, you were asking them, in the form of "Will you sign the petition". One red headed girl TOLD you she wasn't an adult and you STILL pressed her. I was standing there watching it while I waited for me kid. And yeah, you look like a creepy perv. One lady standing by you gave the union cry, "This is what Democracy looks like!" I busted out laughing! The dude who was checking you said, "No, this is what election fraud looks like."

Sorry Ray Ray. I wasn't there, that wasn't me. If it was me we would have had a much more interesting exchange than what you indicate occurred. But again your insisting it was me is just another example of your jumping to conclusions without any facts or basis in reality. How can we believe anything you say?

MDS, sounds to me like you believe anything you hear such as the governor should be recalled. You must be listening to the union reps and their paid advertising. Union reps stand to lose a lot in the potential loss of dues.

Good for you. Are you insinuating that it is acceptable for someone to solicit signatures from the school kids that walk by? IThe only person I said was cussing was the petition collecting perv who told the guy who was checking him to "Get the hell out of here." He, the petition solicitor was the "brainless jag" to which you allude.

Didn't Al Sharpton say that the Greeks were a bunch of homos. Is that true?

I'm not going to disagree with you on that, but you do realize that's all about money, right? Not respect, not feeling good about yourself. Money. It's nice if you can get the respect and like everyone you work with and your boss give you an "atta boy" every now and then, but when it comes down to it in the end it's about money and when that money starts drying up for whatever reason (market changes, management changes, ownership changes, bad management, whatever...) , often times so do all the niceties and it comes down to what's actually needed to get us through this year, month, week whatever - or is it even worth bothering to do so.

One of my biggest clients and the nicest, fairest guys you'd ever want to meet was a former history teacher. He started his business from scratch, it grew to be big, he treated everyone well, everyone pretty much like an equal. If people needed time off for family he gave it to them - no questions asked. It was like one big family, in fact there were whole families who worked there. Then the market started to change. Pretty soon he's doing something he never had done in the past and swore he'd never do - he had to lay people off. He also had to start taking a hard look at some of the people who worked for him and, based on performance, he had to let some go...(cont'd)

...eventually, because he could no longer make a go of it running it the way he wanted to, he was faced with the decision of closing it and putting a couple hundred people out of work, or selling it, giving up control to something he developed from the ground up. Ultimately he sold it and the group he sold it to, eventually, gutted it, getting rid of all the local distribution, shuttering parts of it and it's basically now an office of about 30 people ordering product from China to be shipped to a distribution center in Ohio.

Do you follow what I'm getting at here? It didn't matter how nice a place it was, or how good the people who worked there were or how much of a family atmosphere it was. When it came down to the survival of the company and the retention of as many jobs as possible, all the niceties had to go by the wayside. And, no, he didn't sell off the company, take the money and run. He sold it, took a major hit on it and some other businesses he had that experienced similar declines as the economy began to tank, paid off his debts (and probably could have done some "reorganizing" to avoid that had he wanted to) and, last I heard he's got his home, some real estate and that's about it.

So in this case you have, essentially, the kind of company and boss I assume you'd like to have, who during the good times was able to provide the kind of work environment you and just about everyone would like to have. All it took was a change...

...in market conditions for all that to change, for all the niceties that made the business relationship between employees and their employers seem like a family to disappear.

What you're left with is lean, mean, consumer products machine and, frankly, no one is too happy about working there these days - but they understand why it has to be the way it is. They, for the most part, understand that they have to perform to maintain their jobs. They understand that the days when they can take off to take care of grandma and there will be someone else there to fill in for them are gone. You do have a few who seem to think that the owner skipped town and left them holding the bag, but that's understandable. If you've never done what he did or been involved closely who's done something he did, you don't really understand the decision he had to make and the price he paid for doing so.

That's the other side, Michael. Those are the guys who make the jobs that you, because you wanted to go the easy route, work for. They take the risks, they make the decisions, some of them treat their employees very well for as long as they can and, if and when the day comes that they can no longer afford to do that, have to make the tough decisions nobody is going to be happy about. That's the tradeoff for the freedom and the elimination of one level of subordination that you chose to avoid when you went to work for one or more of them.

Thank you so much for not answering my questions, Dufus Brain?! What a tool. Honestly, I could show you what a thug does, but that would involve you crying without knee caps. I don't do things like that, but I think you should consider a new term for union members, maybe union dufus brains. I would agree with the supply and demand argument if schools were a for profit industry. Now, if we only privatized them, got rid of the tax related school levy, sell the buildings, and left education as a choice. Just like colleges, but with no grant money from the government, nothing. A complete libertarian dream world. Then, supply and demand would be ok. In fact, I would support it completely.

So, what do you do for a job?

Well said! Unfortunately there are far too many people in today's society that are ok with mediocrity, and need the unions to hide behind. I'm not sure they even know what they are fighting for.

Amen 235301! Only a government union thug would disagree with such astute logic.

Let's please stop calling public sector employees union thugs. I will agree that the unions and their officers can in many instances be lumped under the heading "thugs", but it's extremely unfair to lump all members into this category. Most teachers would not fall under the category of "thug"(albeit we saw plenty of them acting thuggish at the capital awhile back, with their fake sick notes and all). You have a class of people that are very used to their entitled lifestyle. It's natural for them to push back when a piece of that is being taken away. Hopefully they will come to their senses and realize those benefit packages are unsustainable for the taxpayer and needed to be adjusted.

Obama is a wet blanket

Do you ever post your original thoughts instead of just bunches of links, Celeste?

If a state has a lower unemployment rate to begin with, wouldn't it be expected that they have a lower job growth than states that have an unemployment rate that is higher than the national average?

We can only hope that the majority of job losses in Wiscsonsin have been those held by trial lawyers and government union thugs.

@Hudson, lawyers and the union leaders are the only ones not being laid off. They are the only ones making out.